If a Christian commits suicide...

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
My point is, one can make a profession of faith, stay in church all their life, sing the songs, walk the walk, talk the talk, and anything else associated with being a christian, and still not be saved.

The above is irrelevant to the discussion. If a person is saved by the Grace of God that person is a Child of God. I repeat, Scripture tells us:

John 6:35-40, KJV
35. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:27-30, KJV
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
30. I and [my] Father are one.

Romans 8:28-30, KJV
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God adopts as sons all who believe in Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:26, KJV
26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

1 John 3:1, KJV
1. Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Romans 8:16,17, KJV
16.The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

 

[PamelaK]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Jesus wants committment, not just to the things that I mentioned in the paragraph above, but He also want full trust in Him. Those who commit suicide do not place their trust fully in Christ. If they had placed full trust in Christ, they would not kill themselves in despair.

2 Corinthians 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I [am] more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
2 Corinthians 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty [stripes] save one.
2 Corinthians 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2 Corinthians 11:26 [In] journeyings often, [in] perils of waters, [in] perils of robbers, [in] perils by [mine own] countrymen, [in] perils by the heathen, [in] perils in the city, [in] perils in the wilderness, [in] perils in the sea, [in] perils among false brethren;
2 Corinthians 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2 Corinthians 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
2 Corinthians 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
2 Corinthians 11:30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

2 Corinthians 4:8 [We are] troubled on every side, yet not distressed; [we are] perplexed, but not in despair;
2 Corinthians 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
2 Corinthians 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
2 Corinthians 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

I don't see Paul attempting suicide anywhere here. Surely all he went through would have justified suicide if it were true that christians can commit suicide and end up in heaven.

John wrote in Revelation that all murderers will find their place in the lake of fire.

God knows the heart. The psalmist said, If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me.

Solomon wrote, He that turneth his ear from the law, even his prayer shall be an abomination.

Suicide is murder, and God's Word says Thou shalt not kill.

Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 10:13 that God would not allow more put on us than we could bear. But would make a way of escape. Suicide is not a way of escape. Suicide is not of God.

standingfirm-
Thanks for responding. I would say that sin, period, is not of God, but that doesn't mean that we don't all still sin. Rev. 20:15 states that whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev 21:8 speaks of the unsaved who have not come "athirst" to the "Alpha and Omega" of the preceding verse 6.
Otherwise you have some sins condemning and other sins not condemning a Christian to hell. As I posted previously with examples, we can all come short of fully trusting in Christ from time to time in many ways, which is how you have defined suicide. Either Christ fully saves or He doesn't.

 

[TaterTot]

I am sure that no one here is saying that suicide is of God. Its clearly not. Neither is pride, selfishness, nor gluttony. (The "respectable" sins that many Christians commit on a daily basis.)
Standingfirm, I respect that you have such a strong belief. I would rather someone know what they believe and why than just meander through life taking someone else's word for truth. However, I cannot agree with your point. If you or I were to participate in gluttony, or embellish the truth just a tad right before a heart attack, you surely cannot believe that you would go to Hell. Especially after the gift you have received from Christ. Or what if there's a sin you did way back when for which you forgot to ask forgiveness?
I fully agree that suicide is wrong, sinful, and the cowards way out. I also have never seen legalism as one of Christs attributes.

Yes, I have had a cousin commit suicide and a dear friend of our family. I believe they didnt go to heaven, but not because of how they died.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Standing Firm, I believe I understand your position. You believe that if a person commits suicide that they couldn't possibly have been saved to begin with. (tell me if I'm wrong)

These are Christ's own words:

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

So did Christ fulfill all the law or did he forget the part about murder? Oh no that can't be right cause He goes on to talk about just that subject. He even goes so far as to put anger and name calling in league with out right murder.

But notice, before He gets that far He says something else that is very pertinant to our conversation.

Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Now just who is He talking to? His diciples, who had every expectation of going to heaven because of thier belief in Him. What is Christ saying? That if they do something wrong and even teach others to do it also that they will be least in the kingdom of heaven. But before they can be the least, they have actually be in heaven.

Someone has already suggested that our sin may cause a loss of reward and that idea is backed up by this passage. But if our sins are forgiven, then ALL our sin is forgiven. There is no way to divide ALL.

If Christ fullfilled the commandment about murder then He fullfilled the entire array of murder that the human race can commit. There is no way to divide out one sin and say it is not forgiven(or can't be) when Christ said HE would fullfill ALL.

 

[LadyEagle]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
Has anyone posting here ever personally known anyone who committed suicide?

I'm asking, because I don't feel like reading back through 12 pages on this thread.

Thank you, Helen, and standingfirminchrist, for your responses.

On my 11th birthday, my Sunday School teacher didn't show up to teach her class. Her daughter was my age and my very best friend. The apartment manager called her pastor (my dad), because the TV was loud coming from the apartment and there was no answer. My dad went in (with the police) to find my Sunday School teacher and my best friend with their brains blown out by a shotgun, apparent murder/suicide.

A few years ago, a friend of mine, who is a lay preacher, went home from work one day to find his teenage son had blown his brains out.

I knew an associate pastor's wife once, who gave a testimony about her father committing suicide.

These stories are tragic, and all of people who had once professed Jesus Christ as Savior. I can't sit here and say I know for sure they are all burning in hell because they did the unthinkable. Any single one of us might be tempted to just end it all if and when we are faced with problems or circumstances that are overwhelming and more than we can handle. It sounds so quaint to say, keep your eyes on Jesus, especially to someone who is going through unbearable heartache and suffering. Yet, that is what we must do. The truth is, the enemy is out to seek and destroy us and walks about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. And none of us is above the temptation, especially if we are in the throes of depression. We see even some of our old testament saints had bouts of depression, David, comes to mind. And the prophet who said, "woe is me, I am undone." Was that Elijah who sat under the Juniper tree? Didn't Jonah get depressed?

We may say, yes, but that is because of sin. That is precisely true, and the truth of it is, unless we have ever contemplated ending it all ourselves because we felt we could never go on, there but by the grace of God, go all of us. Satan tends to tempt us at our weakest points, right?

I agree that suicide is a selfish act. On the other hand, I think of extenuating circumstances that on the surface might be considered suicide. An example comes to mind:

Jesus said: "John.15[13] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

The soldier who throws himself on a grenade to save his comrades, is certainly committing suicide and knows it as he does it, yet, he lays his life down for his friends.

The person who choses to have a Living Will and requests that no medical heroic measures be instituted, no CPR, no intubation, etc., could be construed as committing suicide if life could be prolonged, even by artificial means.

These are just some things I've thought about in my journey through this life. The fact is, no one knows that final conversation between a person and God before life is taken, or even if one takes place. We do not know because we have not walked there. It is wrong, that I know, to take one's own life. But on the other hand, there is GRACE. Something I wrote in the back of my Bible many years ago....

God's
Riches
At
Christ's
Expense

Is what any of us have to cling to. Just my 2 cents.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

1John 2:3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him

This is interesting here though. One of the commandments is Thou shalt not kill. If one kills himself, and this passage is true, then that one cannot have known Him.

 

[PamelaK]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
1John 2:3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him

This is interesting here though. One of the commandments is Thou shalt not kill. If one kills himself, and this passage is true, then that one cannot have known Him.

standingfirm -
Let's examine David. He had a man killed - that's murder. Yet God said David was a man after His own heart. Even tho David had committed murder, God forgave him. Did David only know God after the murder? If a person is saved, God will forgive the sin of suicide as well. If God can not forgive suicide, is that the one unforgivable sin? The rejection of the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin. All sins are covered under one of the Ten Commandments. Therefore, your logic says that if any Christian sins, he was not really a Christian, and has to be "re-saved".

 

[Hope of Glory]

My point is, one can make a profession of faith, stay in church all their life, sing the songs, walk the walk, talk the talk, and anything else associated with being a christian, and still not be saved.

Do they not try hard enough? Maybe they just don't concentrate enough? How much is enough works to qualify you to be saved?

Once again, you are confusing entrance into the Kingdom (rewards) with spiritual salvation.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Helen:


A man a few doors up, about ten years later, who had bouts of severe depression despite the fact that he was a Christian.

Having severe bouts with depression very well might have nothing to do with whether a person is a christian or not. Clinical depression can be a chemical imbalance in the brain. In fact recent research has identified a protein than is involved in depression as well as the neuro-transmitters.

 

[tinytim]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Again, if I stood in front of God and he said, "depart from me, I never knew you" He would be a liar. And God cannot lie.

Excuse me?

If God says He never knew you, it means He never knew you. Read Matthew 7:21 - 23. God certainly did not know those people who thought they were doing God's will.

God knows me now. You posted the biblical reference that if we know Him we will keep his commandments.

If I fail tommorrow to keep a commandment, does God forget that He knew me today?

I KNOW that He knows me. We have a daily relationship. If He would ever say to me after i die that he NEVER knew me, He would be lying.

Does God know you now? (know you as a child of his?) (I believe He does because of your testimony.)

If you answered yes, then How could He honestly say at judgement, "I never knew you."???
Even if you commit suicide, (Hope you don't though )

 

[DeeJay]

I can not find where anybody has dealt with this yet.

Then Samson said, “Let me die with the Philistines!” And he pushed with all his might, and the temple fell on the lords and all the people who were in it. So the dead that he killed at his death were more than he had killed in his life.
Judges 16:30

Or this:

The soldier who throws himself on a grenade to save his comrades, is certainly committing suicide and knows it as he does it, yet, he lays his life down for his friends.

 

[Gina B]

DeeJay, I did. LINK

Nobody really responded directly to it. Waste of time posting if nobody's gonna actually read it, or if they do, ignore it.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:


A man a few doors up, about ten years later, who had bouts of severe depression despite the fact that he was a Christian.

Having severe bouts with depression very well might have nothing to do with whether a person is a christian or not. Clinical depression can be a chemical imbalance in the brain. In fact recent research has identified a protein than is involved in depression as well as the neuro-transmitters. </font>[/QUOTE]You are right. And there are hereditary disorders which seem to be related here. We ARE living in the end times and there are a ton of mutations in the human race now which produce all manner of damage in different ways.

The reason I phrased it the way I did was that have heard people say that if someone is depressed or has bouts of severe depression they are either not really a Christian or not trusting God. Neither of those is necessarily true.

 

[DeeJay]

Thanks Gina

I thought it was a good point and was realy hoping to hear an answer to it. I dont think it is comming though.

When I said "Nobody has dealt with it" I meant nobody has answered your point.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Helen, I would like to address your point. I do agree with you, but I think it needs to be pointed out that many cases of "depression" is not a physical problem, but is a spiritual problem. However, psychiatrists and psychologists deal with them all the same.

I think that hurts both those who have real, physical problems and those who have spiritual problems.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I've been saved for 27 yrs now.
If I go out and murder a person, but refuse to ask God to forgive me, will I Go to Heaven?

Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall. If you refuse to ask for forgiveness, then I would say the pride (arrogance) in your heart would keep you out of heaven. If God allowed a person who had so much pride that they couldn't bow and ask for forgiveness for sin, into heaven, then He would be wrong for casting satan out of heaven. For that is the same sin that caused satan's fall; pride.

 

[Alcott]

So if you go to a ball game and cheer for "your" team, maybe wearing their insignia or cap, because you want to identify yourself with the team you want to prevail as superior, you are guilty of the sin which got Satan kicked out of heaven?

 

[DeeJay]

Standing

What about Sampson? Are you going to deal with that.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

DeeJay,

Can you show me scripture where Samson went to heaven?

 

[DeeJay]

I am not sure I can. Is it your beliefe that he went to hell.

Also he prayed to God for the power to kill him self and his prayer was granted. Does God answer the prayers of the unsaved. And if what Samson was doing was evil would God have given him the power to do it when he made his intentions clear in his prayer.