If a Christian commits suicide...

[Me4Him]

God doesn't look at sin as "Big/Little", if it "transgresses the law", it's sin.

"Rebellion" against God will bring "Chastisement" (God only chastise his own, the saved) which can result in the "physical death" of the person, but the soul remains "SAVED".

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This is the same "Chastisement" Israel reaps during the trib for rejecting Jesus, those choosing to worship Jesus, rather than the "image", will die a "Physical death" but their souls will be saved.

Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

God uses the AC as a "ROD" to chastise Israel.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, (AC) the rod of mine anger, and the staff (leadership)in their hand is mine indignation.

I've known "Christians" who "bucked up" on God, and they died before their time. (old age)

I guess you would have to ask, "was the suicide", "Chastisement", or Satan claiming "one of his own"?? (Hitler)


I dreamed last night
death came to me
and Heaven's gates swung wide
and with gentle grace
St Peter usher me inside

Before my face friends
whom I had known on earth
some I considered as unfit
and of little worth

indignant words rose to my lips
but never were set free
cause every face
showed stunned surprise

NNE EXPECTED ME.

Author unknown

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Christ did not commit suicide. Christ did not nail Himself to that cross. He could have come down from the cross, but He was not there to do that, He was there to do the will of the Father.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

indignant words rose to my lips
but never were set free
cause every face
showed stunned surprise

NNE EXPECTED ME.

I disagree with that part of the poem. It is bringing sin into heaven, the original sin of pride.

 

[Helen]

Matthew 20:28 -- [Jesus talking] ..."just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

John 6:51 -- [Jesus talking] "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

John 10:11 -- [Jesus speaking] "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."

John 10::17-18 -- [Jesus talking] "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life -- only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from the Father."

He lay down His own life, standing.

In addition, are you willing to say that that act of His did NOT atone for all sin?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Christ did not commit suicide, Helen. Don't know what you are trying to get at, but it ain't gonna fly.

And Christ's death was for all, yes. But a true christian will not commit suicide. You cannot show me one verse in the Bible where someone who committed suicide ended up in heaven. I can, however, show scripture to prove no murderer will enter heaven.

 

[HankD]

I can, however, show scripture to prove no murderer will enter heaven.

What about King David who committed the planned and premeditated murder of Uriah to cover up his sin with Bathsheba, will he be in heaven?

You may disagree if you wish, but Revelation states that all murderers will find their home in the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Let's just take one other classification from the list above in the Revelation: Whoremonger: from the root word pornos One who commits illicit sex of any kind.

None of these folks who have committed this type of sin:"porno", are going to heaven?

They are included in the same passage along with murderers.

Not to mention "liars".

I'm just trying to clarify your position standingfirminChrist. I'm particularly interested in your thoughts about David who had Uriah killed.

Does repentance include the sin of murder?

HankD

 

[Helen]

I know you don't like it, standing, but no one TOOK His life from Him, did they?

As for the rest, I will leave it up to God, and not you, to judge the heart of any given person. He's the one who knows. He's the one whose mercy triumphs.

standing, I see so much judgment from you over all kinds of people. That's not a wise thing to do, sir.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

"What about King David who committed the planned and premeditated murder of Uriah to cover up his sin with Bathsheba, will he be in heaven?"

If you read Psalm 51, David did repent of that murder and asked God's forgiveness. One cannot repent of suicide, nor ask forgiveness after one is dead.

All of the sins mentioned in Revelation 21:8, one can ask forgiveness for, and if one is truly repentant, God will forgive. But as I stated, after one is dead, one cannot ask for forgiveness.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
"What about King David who committed the planned and premeditated murder of Uriah to cover up his sin with Bathsheba, will he be in heaven?"

If you read Psalm 51, David did repent of that murder and asked God's forgiveness. One cannot repent of suicide, nor ask forgiveness after one is dead.

All of the sins mentioned in Revelation 21:8, one can ask forgiveness for, and if one is truly repentant, God will forgive. But as I stated, after one is dead, one cannot ask for forgiveness.

and you know this how?

 

[Brice]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
I can, however, show scripture to prove no murderer will enter heaven.

Using the application of this verse as such, NNE is in heaven. Not to mention David, Moses, and Paul. You have a choice, you can either admit you are using the verse out of context or admit everyone is going to Hell (I've never met a person that hasn't lied). This has been raised a few times and you have ignored it. God bless.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Helen, according to God's Word, we are permitted to judge.

The child of God has an obligation to judge everything by God's Word.

The believers at Corinth were rebuked because they were careless in this regard and were tolerant of false teachers (2 Cor. 11:1-4).

The Bereans, were commended because they carefully tested everything by the Scriptures to see 'whether those things were so' (Acts 17:11).

The Bible says "he that is spiritual judgeth all things" (1 Cor. 2:15).

Jesus said we should "judge righteous judgment" (John 7:24).

Paul wrote we are to judge preaching (1 Cor. 14:29).

Paul shows us that we are to judge sin in the churches (1 Cor. 5).

Christians are told to try the spirits to see if they are of God (1 John 4:1).

To test preachers and their message carefully by God's Word is not a matter of pride, but wisdom and obedience.

 

[Brice]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
"What about King David who committed the planned and premeditated murder of Uriah to cover up his sin with Bathsheba, will he be in heaven?"

If you read Psalm 51, David did repent of that murder and asked God's forgiveness. One cannot repent of suicide, nor ask forgiveness after one is dead.

All of the sins mentioned in Revelation 21:8, one can ask forgiveness for, and if one is truly repentant, God will forgive. But as I stated, after one is dead, one cannot ask for forgiveness.

Again, either the blood of Christ attones for all sin past, present and future or we are all going to hell. Unrepentent sin of a saved person does not send one to hell. If this was so then you are in a LOT of trouble.

Earlier you said NO murderer will get into Heaven, now you say some, but only if they get the chance to repent. So Christs' blood doesn't cover future sin? So you can lose your salvation? So if David died before he had a chance to repent, he would be in hell?

[ January 07, 2006, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: Brice ]

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Helen, according to God's Word, we are permitted to judge.

The child of God has an obligation to judge everything by God's Word.

The believers at Corinth were rebuked because they were careless in this regard and were tolerant of false teachers (2 Cor. 11:1-4).

The Bereans, were commended because they carefully tested everything by the Scriptures to see 'whether those things were so' (Acts 17:11).

The Bible says "he that is spiritual judgeth all things" (1 Cor. 2:15).

Jesus said we should "judge righteous judgment" (John 7:24).

Paul wrote we are to judge preaching (1 Cor. 14:29).

Paul shows us that we are to judge sin in the churches (1 Cor. 5).

Christians are told to try the spirits to see if they are of God (1 John 4:1).

To test preachers and their message carefully by God's Word is not a matter of pride, but wisdom and obedience.

You say: according to God's Word, we are permitted to judge.

I will then take the liberty to exercise that God given privilege and judge what you are saying: it is complete idiocy and completely unScriptural.

If one follows your rationale no one could be saved for the simple reason that we unknowingly sin on occasion. That being the case how can we repent, therefore we are condemned to the "lake of fire", according to your illogic.

 

[HankD]

All of the sins mentioned in Revelation 21:8, one can ask forgiveness for, and if one is truly repentant, God will forgive. But as I stated, after one is dead, one cannot ask for forgiveness.

OK, I see you include murder in repentance.

However I disagree with you because I believe the Bible teaches OSAS and that it's possible for a believer to commit a homicide without being a "murderer" that is one who kills out of hatred.

What about other sins unrepented of?

In fact one does not even have to commit the "murder" but only has to have hatred in his heart:

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

On the other hand David didn't exactly hate Uriah, but wanted him out of the way so he could have Bathsheba.

Now had David died before the Spirit of God convicted Him through Nathan the prophet then according to your thoughts he would have gone to hell. I have a major difficulty with that premise.

Then there is the fact that while we can know the Word of God and the results for breaking it, we cannot know the heart of the individual and the motivation because we judge by the outward appearance but only God can know the heart.

In addition I don't believe that every act of homicide is murder in God's eyes else there would be no "cities of refuge" under the Law.

I believe the Bible teaches that there must be an intent of the will out of an abiding hatred of someone for a homicide to be classified as "murder".

How many instances are there where people kill others but not out of maliscious hatred but willfully nonetheless.

Someone breaks into my house and I shoot them dead, etc.

There are other scenarios where it is even less clear especially concerning suicide. e.g. The folks leaping from the Twin Towers or the suicide of the mentally ill or other circumstances of extreme duress.

I agree with you Standing that the Bible allows and even expects us to make certain judgments but I also agree with Helen that we need to be very careful about those judgments especially concerning the eternal destiny of others.

So is it possible in your mind that a born again child of God commit a homicide not classified as murder like negligent homicide or manslaughter?

Or even a crime classifed as murder:
Here is an example: A Christian gets pulled over by the police but because of fear he/she flees. Said Christian crashes in the prsuit and accidently kills someone.

Fleeing from the police is a felony in most if not all states. Any homicide committed in the commission of a felony is murder.

So, can this happen to a "true" Christian?

Or, is every homicide a "Murder" in God's sight.

What about Christians going to war and killing the "enemy" who could be their brethren in Christ (Germany in WWII)?

BTW standingfirminChrist welcome to the BB debate forums where everything one says is disected and held up to the Word of God.

Please don't feel like anyone is picking on you especially, we have all had our turn under the microscope.

HankD

 

[tinytim]

One thing has came out of this discussion,
I have a new found appreciation for Christ's blood.
After reading all the posts, I am SOOOOOO glad that Christ came down to forgive my sins. Past, Present, and Future.

Standing, I have a question, you may have answered it, but I missed it.

Do you believe that once a person gets saved, if they sin they must confess that sin to get to Heaven? This is after they are saved.

IOWs, I've been saved for 27 yrs now.
If I go out and murder a person, but refuse to ask God to forgive me, will I Go to Heaven?
You may say, "well you never were saved." But yes I am.


There is no way God can say depart from me I NEVER knew you. Because I know He knows me now. For him to say that would make Him a liar.

In one post you mentioned the chastening of God.
If a person loses their salvation they are no longer a child of God, but a child of Satan. God would no longer have a right to chasten that person. If you were in a grocery store and saw a kid doing something that was mean, would you chasten him? I wouldn't, that is someone elses child, it is their responsibility to make their kids mind.
It is not God's responsibility to make Satan's Kids mind. And if one loses his salvation, they are then Satan's child.
The fact that God chastens, proves we don't lose our salvation.

If you believe that you must do something to maintain your salvation, even repentance after you sin, you believe in a works salvation, and therefore are not fully relying on the blood of Christ to take you to Heaven. If you believe this you may say you rely on Christ, but not fully, for you are depending on something you have to do.

 

[tinytim]

One thing has came out of this discussion,
I have a new found appreciation for Christ's blood.
After reading all the posts, I am SOOOOOO glad that Christ came down to forgive my sins. Past, Present, and Future.

Standing, I have a question, you may have answered it, but I missed it.

Do you believe that once a person gets saved, if they sin they must confess that sin to get to Heaven? This is after they are saved.

IOWs, I've been saved for 27 yrs now.
If I go out and murder a person, but refuse to ask God to forgive me, will I Go to Heaven?
You may say, "well you never were saved." But yes I am.


There is no way God can say depart from me I NEVER knew you. Because I know He knows me now. For him to say that would make Him a liar.

In one post you mentioned the chastening of God.
If a person loses their salvation they are no longer a child of God, but a child of Satan. God would no longer have a right to chasten that person. If you were in a grocery store and saw a kid doing something that was mean, would you chasten him? I wouldn't, that is someone elses child, it is their responsibility to make their kids mind.
It is not God's responsibility to make Satan's Kids mind. And if one loses his salvation, they are then Satan's child.
The fact that God chastens, proves we don't lose our salvation.

If you believe that you must do something to maintain your salvation, even repentance after you sin, you believe in a works salvation, and therefore are not fully relying on the blood of Christ to take you to Heaven. If you believe this you may say you rely on Christ, but not fully, for you are depending on something you have to do.

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Christ did not commit suicide, Helen. Don't know what you are trying to get at, but it ain't gonna fly.

And Christ's death was for all, yes. But a true christian will not commit suicide. You cannot show me one verse in the Bible where someone who committed suicide ended up in heaven. I can, however, show scripture to prove no murderer will enter heaven.

Wow, it just so happens that I was writing on suicide. I only started it briefly before, never finished, so I'll do that eventually and post it, but the few sentences I have down now just happen to answer that question. I'll just go ahead and copyright the whole thing, even though I'll be adding to it right now, in case I want to use anything later that I write, right now. yet?

Ok, here.

The topic of suicide is regularly raised within Christian circles. A variety of opinions can be found as to the final destination of those who take the timing of death into their own hands, but let's look at this from a biblical perspective.

There is one unpardonable sin. It is blasphemy, which is spoken of by Christ.

Matthew 12:31 and 32: "Because of this, I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the one to come."

I have seen many definitions of what blasphemy is, but Stephen Motyer explained it plainly in Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology when he said this: "Jesus teaches that the blasphemy for which there is no forgiveness is that against the Holy Spirit; all other blasphemies, particularly those against "the Son of Man, " may be forgiven. Insults thrown at "the Son of Man" may be forgiven because they are committed in ignorance of who he really is: his heavenly glory does not appear on earth. But to ascribe obvious manifestations of the Spirit to the devil's agency is a much more serious offense not committed in ignorance."

Clearly, Christians can, and must, throw away the misconception of suicide as an unforgiveable offense when it happens in situations that are not considered to have honorable justification, or as some still claim, even in those situations. To not put away such a false belief would be denial of what Christ has taught us. That is a serious offense.

Is it possible for a true Christian to commit suicide? Again, let us turn to the word of God for our answer. We find the author of Hebrews speaking in praise of the old testament saints, and look who is included in verse thirty-two of chapter 11 - "And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:"

Samson is the man included, the same man who prayed to God for the physical strength that would enable him to avenge the Philistine enemies by breaking down the pillars of the house he was standing in, and it was done. Some people have tried to say this wasn't a suicide, but those claims are easily dismissed. If you aren't convinced, put yourself in Samson's place. Imagine yourself standing between two pillars, which provide the bulk of support needed to keep a large house standing. What will become of you if you destroy the pillars while still standing between them? It is ludicrous to assume you would survive. Samson knew what he was doing, just as surely as you would.
standingfirminChrist has quoted a verse from Revelation, as a proof that those who commit suicide go to hell. Here is the verse he quoted, along with the one that precedes it:

" He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

His reasoning is that a person who commits suicide does not have time to repent of his sin, thus is not forgiven and is still considered a murderer.

Why isn't that an accurate portrayal of the truth? It is not accurate because a Christian, by definition, is a person forgiven of all sins past, present, and future. When God looks at Christian people, he sees them through the filter of the Son. This is called salvation, which is an eternal concept. When God promised eternal life, he meant it. Eternal life is not eternal life if it is taken away. To say that a Christian who commits sin can lose the gift of eternal life that has been given to him is to say that person never had eternal life. He had the opportunity to get it, based on his own goodness, and lost it. It claims the blood of Christ to be ineffective based on the timing of a sin, and introduces the idea of progressive forgiveness...a Christian remains unforgiven for any sins not repented of. In that case, we're all on our way to hell on a fairly regular basis.

© by Gina Locke

 

[Helen]

tinytim, Gina, excellent posts, and thank you.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
And Christ's death was for all, yes. But a true christian will not commit suicide. You cannot show me one verse in the Bible where someone who committed suicide ended up in heaven. I can, however, show scripture to prove no murderer will enter heaven.

And I've challenged you to show such Scripture.

You've shown where a person's part (their share of the Kingdom) will be burned up, but what does 1 Corinthians say?

1 Corinthians 3:13-15: Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

That's why I suggested repeatedly to parse and diagram the passage in Revelation that you are quoting is saying.

What you have quoted is referring to rewards and loss, not salvation. As has been pointed out to you by many people here, salvation is not by works! Your salvation is secure and cannot be lost, not matter how apostate you may become.

Suicide will not cause you to end up in the lake of fire, but you will certainly be held accountable for it, if for not other reason, because you cannot repent of it in most cases.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
indignant words rose to my lips
but never were set free
cause every face
showed stunned surprise

NNE EXPECTED ME.

I disagree with that part of the poem. It is bringing sin into heaven, the original sin of pride.

The poem is refering to "OUR JUDGMENT" of other people's service to God.

I "Expect" there will be people in Heaven whom we're judged "unworthy", and the "absents" of some whom we're judged "worthy".

Only "GOD" can "Righteously" judge the "HEART".