If a Christian commits suicide...

[standingfirminChrist]

Samson did not pray for power to kill himself, he asked God to let him die with the philistines. Big difference.

I do not believe it was suicide. God gave him the strength to bring that house down. Outside of God's answer to prayer, Samson could not have done that. God was answering that prayer.

 

[DeeJay]

In Judges 16;26 he askes to put his hands on the pillers (obviously part of his plan)

Then in 28 his prayer

Then Samson called to the LORD, saying, “O Lord GOD, remember me, I pray! Strengthen me, I pray, just this once, O God, that I may with one blow take vengeance on the Philistines for my two eyes!”

Then the suicide, and how could this not be considered suicide. He took his own life, the very definition of suicide. He even said "let me die with the Philistines" Why not "Let the temple fall around me killing them but leaving me safe"

And Samson took hold of the two middle pillars which supported the temple, and he braced himself against them, one on his right and the other on his left. 30 Then Samson said, “Let me die with the Philistines!” And he pushed with all his might, and the temple fell on the lords and all the people who were in it.

Samson obviously knew what he was going to do. And God certenly knew what Samson was going to do.

Did you say you believe Samson is in hell?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Again, God gave Samson that strength. He asked God to let him die with the Philistines. Is it not possible that God honored his prayer? and that God took his life? maybe even before one piece of the house even hit him? If that is at all possible, then he would not have committed suicide, would he?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

My first wife tried to commit suicide. God did not allow it to happen. I do not believe God wants anyone to commit suicide, even Samson.

Our God is a God of life, not death. Satan is come to steal, kill and destroy. God does not want anyone to commit suicide, so I do not believe He would have given Samson the power to kill himself with it.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Going to bed. will check the thread when I get up.

 

[DeeJay]

maybe even before one piece of the house even hit him? If that is at all possible, then he would not have committed suicide, would he?

I supose this is possable. It is also the largest strech of scripture I have seen to date. The Bible says the house fell down on all who were in it. If God would have killed Samson before it fell on him because he did not want suicide. I would think the Bible would have said this, for the simple reason of not misleading people who read the Bible and take it for face value instead of making it fit their doctrine.

God does not want anyone to commit suicide, so I do not believe He would have given Samson the power to kill himself with it.

So your stuck with the unbelievable sinerio above that you made up to take the place of scripture. Or you dont believe Gods word.

 

[DeeJay]

Standing

There are alot of smart people on this board. I am not one but I certen people have stood out to me as being very grounded like PastorSBC and Tinytim to name only two. I am looking back thru the 14 pages on this thread and very few people agree with you.

Almost all posts on this thread agree you are teaching a works doctrine. It may be worth your time to listen and reconcider some of the arguements against.

Again there are a lot of smart people on this board and they have presented you with very good arguments. I think if you are honest with yourself you will see your arguments are shakey and streaches. Reread and reconsider the posibility you may be wrong on this one.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
LadyEagle, I have had relatives and friends both to commit suicide.

I would dearly love to see them in heaven, but know that they will not be there.

I think you're gonna be in for a big surprise! And I mean that in a good way!

 

[In His Grace]

Originally posted by DeeJay:
Standing

There are alot of smart people on this board. I am not one but I certen people have stood out to me as being very grounded like PastorSBC and Tinytim to name only two. I am looking back thru the 14 pages on this thread and very few people agree with you.

Almost all posts on this thread agree you are teaching a works doctrine. It may be worth your time to listen and reconcider some of the arguements against.

Again there are a lot of smart people on this board and they have presented you with very good arguments. I think if you are honest with yourself you will see your arguments are shakey and streaches. Reread and reconsider the posibility you may be wrong on this one.

DeeJay,
I think you put it very kindly to StandingfirminChrist, but he seems to have a problem in answering a direct question with a direct answer.
As an example; Did you say you beleive Samson is in hell?
All it takes is a simple, yes or no, not some round about hypothetical answer.

Or sometimes he will shoot scripture out of context, or try and apply it toward Christians, when it is meant to apply toward the unsaved only.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by DeeJay:
Standing

There are alot of smart people on this board. I am not one but I certen people have stood out to me as being very grounded like PastorSBC and Tinytim to name only two. I am looking back thru the 14 pages on this thread and very few people agree with you.

Almost all posts on this thread agree you are teaching a works doctrine. It may be worth your time to listen and reconcider some of the arguements against.

Again there are a lot of smart people on this board and they have presented you with very good arguments. I think if you are honest with yourself you will see your arguments are shakey and streaches. Reread and reconsider the posibility you may be wrong on this one.

This is not works salvation. Salvation is through accepting Christ as your Savior. But a mere belief in Christ is not enough. If you look at Christ's ministry he NEVER USED THE WORD GRACE. He always called people to DO something, come and follow me, pick up your cross and follow me, etc. Those who endure until the end will be saved not those who have a shallow faith too weak to prompt them into action for the Lord.

Both major descriptions of the Judgement in MA 25 and Rev 20 talk about being judged by works. These are only those works done after we have accepted Christ as our Savior. Any good works done before that are as filthy rags.

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Samson did not pray for power to kill himself, he asked God to let him die with the philistines. Big difference.

I do not believe it was suicide. God gave him the strength to bring that house down. Outside of God's answer to prayer, Samson could not have done that. God was answering that prayer.

I prayed for God to let me die when I tried too. I think a lot of people do.
There are a number of suicides in the Bible. Offhand, I can't remember names. There was one who despaired, ran into his castle, and set it on fire with no way out. Saul, and his armor bearer. Can't remember the rest, but there's more. For how many times it happened, it stands to reason that it would be spoken of as an unforgiveable sin, but it is/was not.
The cry of "God, let this work" is common before an attempt. So is "forgive me for what I'm about to do".

standing firm, what I'd like to see you do is this.

Show that the promise of eternal life, once given, is taken back based on a person's sin.

Show that Christ's death didn't overcome the sin of suicide. In fact, since his sin overcame death itself, I'd VERY disinclined to agree with you simply based on the fact that death itself was overcome.

Such WERE some of you. When God looks down, he does not see our sin if we are saved. We are made one in Christ. When he looks at a saved person, he sees Christ. He does not see a murderer, or a liar, or anything else.
That is scriptural.
Show me how it isn't. If you can do that, you have grounds to stand on, but so far you haven't.

I personally believe in eternal security. I am assuming you do not. Is that accurate?

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
If God is true to His Word, and we know He is, then all who murder themselves intentionally are in hell.

If that's the case, then God is not true to His Word.

I do not believe that a believer will die with unrepented sin.

Then few, if any, believers will be in Heaven. All of us, you, I, and many others, have at least a few sins on us for which we have not yet repented of.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Gina,

The Psalmist wrote If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me.

Solomon wrote, He that turneth his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be an abomination.

People can go all through life thinking they are christian, make a profession of faith, doing good deeds, going to church, reading their Bible. Does not necessarily mean they are saved.

Look at the story of the Pharisee and the publican. The pharisee was proud that he did all of those things he mentioned of in his prayer. Pride had been in his heart all along. Because of pride, the Pharisee did not go to heaven.

My point is, if there is any sin that a person holds in his heart at the time he makes that profession of faith, that person's prayer will not have been heard.

A person who commits suicide is not trusting Christ to carry him through a trial. Why can it not be possible that that person harbored some sort of sin in his heart all along?

The Bible tells us all murderers will end up in the lake of fire. That is not me, that is Bible. Suicide is murder. All means all.

 

[Helen]

OK, just as Jesus died for all my sins, past, present and future, I also repent of all my sins, past, present and future.

In fact, I don't know a Christian who doesn't, actually...

 

[TEXASGRANDMA]

God judges each suicide individually. Can a Christian become mentally ill because of physical aliment or mental disease and commit suicide? Yes, I have known of two Christians who commited suicide.
But both were no longer able to think clearly because of illness so severe that they could not even take care of their basic needs. Both still loved God and prayed to the very end.
Both are in Heaven. Did God choose for them to die this way? I don't think so. But He knew they were not responisable for their actions.
betty

 

[Gina B]

standing, the verse does say that they will, but it also says that we WERE all those things.

A Christian who commits murder is not a murderer in Christ's eyes. For the Christian, all sins are forgiven.
If they're not, the hope we have in Christ is greatly diminished, if not non-existant.

We break the 10 commandments daily, and are told that the sin of our thoughts makes us just as guilty as carrying them out.
And what about our actions? Our taxes fund abortion. They fund war, both just and unjust.
When we hate, we have the heart of a murderer.
When we do not witness, we have the heart of a murderer because we withhold life because of our inaction.

Praise God that we WERE these things in God's eyes. I want to live up to my forgiveness, for the sake of my love for what Christ did for me, not live up to and be worth my salvation because it ain't gonna happen.

Helen, that seems very reasonable. I like it!

 

[Rhetorician]

Ladies & Gentlement; and all of those who call on the Lord Jesus Christ in a Good Conscience:

Give me leave to interject two thoughts that may be relevent.

First,
that great Protestant Reformer Dr. Martin Luther stated concerning Christians: "Simul Iustus Et Pecatore!" or we are simultaneously justified and sinners. Either way we are sinners! This is the basis of his "The just shall live by faith!" rule.

Secondly,
I would argue pastorally and not so much Biblically or theologically; that one who commits suicide is not in their "right mind." I know I must argue casuistically from the Scripture on a case-by-case basis to arive here; but I believe it will serve a purpose for our present discussion.

The highest instinct that humankind has is that of self preservation. Is it not?? For one to take his or her own life, I think is to make a case that they are "our of their minds," "insane," "mad," or however you may want to define it.

I would submit that this person is in the "same boat" or category as my moderately retarded son. They have not the moral responsibility in this case, regardless of the initial cause of their present circumstance.

All of us in the ministry have argued all of lives, have we not, that those who die in infancy are taken care of by our loving Heavenly Father?

I would also argue; that those who commit suicide, infants who die in infancy, and children like my dear son who die are not responsible before their God. God makes provision for them b/c he is a Loving Heavenly Father!!!

Before I get "those cards and letters," I have no idea what the suicide victim's standing before God might have been, be it the saved or lost condition before the terrible act.

These thoughts are only for consideration and spoken pastorally.

The truth of the matter is; we are not given detailed data from any Scripture what exactly God does with/to these individuals. We must come to a conclusion based on our own interpretive presuppositions. BUT!!!!!!!!!!!! we must endeavor to minister Grace to those who need a word of comfort!

One of the holy sages of the High Middle Ages observed, when it came to who might be in Heaven.

He made the statement that all of us would be surprised by;

1. Who is there!

2. Whos is NOT there! AND most of all!

3. That we are there!!

Grace and peace!!

sdg!

rd

 

[HankD]

A person who commits suicide is not trusting Christ to carry him through a trial. Why can it not be possible that that person harbored some sort of sin in his heart all along?

If there is a flaw in your thinking standingfirminChrist, I would say it is the emboldened statement above that somehow not trusting in Christ to carry us through a trial either takes away our salvation or proves we are not saved.

I have been saved over 40 years and I am still learning the reality of this lesson and my faith and trust in Christ is still growing through experiential knowledge.

1 John 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.


HankD

 

[Helen]

Sir (rd), with the exception of those who literally die to save the life of another, who are imitating Christ, Amen to your post and thank you.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
A person who commits suicide is not trusting Christ to carry him through a trial.

It can be said, and said quite accurately, that a person who commits any sin is not trusting in Christ.

The Bible tells us all murderers will end up in the lake of fire.

Then God lies when His word says all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Additionally, you're contradicting yourself here. According to your interpretation of scripture, certain sins prevent you from entering the Kingdom. But you earlier commented that unrepentence barrs you from heaven, thus contradicting your own scriptural position.