If a Jewish state is to be created ............

[Crabtownboy]

I find it interesting that CTB upholds D.H. Lawrence ("Lawrence of Arabia") as the person to which we should look to as the standard for which one should admire as being the one to found a new Jewish state in the region of Palestine.

Granted, Lawrence wanted to establish a "state" in what then was called Palestine, but only if he himself could be its sole dictatorial tyrant.

In all my reading I have never seen this idea expressed. Can you give me a reference. It is true that he has bee called many things, positive things by those who admire him and negative things by those who do not like him.

While at first the British seemed to welcome him for his military successes in "Palestine," those so-called "successes" were only accomplished by an armed force mostly made up men who were forcibly made to join his so-called army whose ONLY allegiance was to Lawrence himself.

He was the only European the Arabs trusted and that trust was tentative.

His so-called army was mainly comprised of men who, upon whom were faced with the choice of either being tortured or killed on the spot.

I would like a reference for this also.

When the British found out about how Lawrence's merciless impressment of innocent men, they quickly disavowed any association with him.

Don't think so. Give me a reference for this also.

The only reason Lawrence was able to accomplish what he did was due mainly the fact that both the British and the French (the only major western European nations that had any significant influence in the Middle East [or the "Levant" as it was more popularly known during those times] were more concerned with what was happening much closer to home--namely the almost unchallenged rise of Adolph Hitler in the post-WW1 Germany.

His accomplishments were during WW I. Hitler was totally unknown at that time. He was an advisor to Winston Churchill in 1921. He joined the RAF in 1922 and left in 1923. He joined the Royal Tank Corp in 1923 and left that organization in 1925 when he rejoined the RAF. In 1935 he left the RAF.

He did spend a lot of his time riding his motorcycle through the countryside. Indeed, it was a motorcycle accident in 1935 when he was 46 that lead to his death six days later. He had suffered traumatic head injuries. A bust of Lawrence was placed in the crypt at St Paul's Cathedral,

Germany's economy at that time was basically destroyed because of the very heavy amount of war reparations it was forced to pay the victorious western European nations.

I agree. But Lawrence had nothing to do with that.

The German's couldn't possibly repay such huge amounts of money to the victorious British and French, but because they had to accede to the unreasonable terms of the Versailles Treaty, they had to do so.

I agree.

Consequently the Germans looked to the one man who claimed that his brand of national socialism (i.e., Nazism) would lead them to a new "Third Reich."

I do not know if Hitler was the one man. But he was the most ruthless as history shows.

Although the "Great Depression" was practically a global one, its effects weren't relatively that bad in Germany during the early 1930's. Her war-based economy actually put many Germans back to work, especially when Hitler successfully occupied the Rhineland (Which the so-called League of Nations "asked" Hitler not to do so!)

Hitler could have cared less about what the very weak League of Nations wanted to do; thus he marched right into the heavily industrialized region of Germany and forced most of that region's industries to convert to making aircraft and tanks that would be the weapons that would form the crux of his Blitzkrieg strategy.

I agree.

So, with both Britain and France evacuating most of its League of Nations mandates in the Middle East, Lawrence filled that vacuum by rising to power in "Palestine."

Fortunately, Lawrence's dictatorial grasp of power in that region was short-lived because not only many of those Middle Eastern nations were so shocked at his tyrannical rule that they raised organized armies against him, but also because his sources of arms and other equipment were diverted to re-arm nations that were also more concerned with Hitler's threats to their own nations.

Actually he never had any political power. His primary accomplishment was bringing Arab tribes together to fight their common enemy, the Ottoman Empire.

Lawrence himself also grew tired of continually fighting and turned to writing--writing that was so overtly sinful that many nations refused to allow any of his ungodly writings to enter their boarders.

If a Christian were wont to choose a man to support a new Jewish state in Palestine, D. H. Lawrence would certainly NOT be the one to do so.

I don't believe anyone ever proposed he do so, including Lawrence.

 

[wpe3bql]

The bulk of the information about Lawrence & the Middle East during his ventures there came from Dr. Dore Gold [Ph.D in International Relations & the Middle East from Columbia Univ.] various writings on the Middle East, especially from his The Fight for Jerusalem.

You are correct that Lawrence was only one the Arabs trusted, but that was due to his ability to sway the Arabs to his point of view. A tyrant holding political has almost always been the kind of ruler most Arabs tend to trust--even today (e.g., Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Egypt, etc.).

You are correct in stating that Lawrence's political/military ventures were primarily during WW1, but that doesn't discount the fact that national socialism was one of the more popular factions soon after 1918. The main reason it didn't gain ascendancy sooner was because none of its early leaders were great orators like Hitler was. A study of national socialism in Germany will tell you of that.

I realize that Lawrence didn't play any role in the economic demise of Germany. If you'll take the time to read my statements about this, you will not find me stating anywhere that I stated that Lawrence did.

Again, I didn't state that Hitler was the man that the German national socialists desired to be their leader because there was a continuous power struggle within the German national socialists until Hitler finally assumed leadership in their ranks.

While it's true that the Ottoman Turks were the principal enemy of the Arabs at that time. Even today very few Arab nations are friendly with Turkey. Although most Arabs are Islamic, they continue to distrust Turkey because Turkey is about the only Islamic state that has for some 90 or so years shown that an Islamic nation doesn't have to be controlled by an oppressive form of government.

As you stated, I don't think any serious Christian would want to uphold Lawrence as a model of one that would support a Jewish state in the Middle East.

CTB, since your post requested that I provide source material to support the statements in my post on this thread, now I will ask you to produce source material to disprove my statements that you infer are false.

 

[kyredneck]

...If a Christian were wont to choose a man to support a new Jewish state in Palestine, D. H. Lawrence would certainly NOT be the one to do so.

...As you stated, I don't think any serious Christian would want to uphold Lawrence as a model of one that would support a Jewish state in the Middle East......

Are you inferring 'serious Christians' are/were somehow obliged to support the Zionists?

 

[Alcott]

If a Jewish state is to be created ............

.....then who's going to do the landscaping, plumbing, and woodworking? Jews consider themselves too good for that kind of work. Maybe they have illegal aliens from Jordan who will do it for $7.50/hour?

 

[kyredneck]

Migrant labor in Israel

 

[Crabtownboy]

CTB, since your post requested that I provide source material to support the statements in my post on this thread, now I will ask you to produce source material to disprove my statements that you infer are false.

My primary source is the Lawrence in Arabia: War, Deceit, Imperial Folly and the Making of the Modern Middle East by Scott Anderson. Lawrence was an enigma during his lifetime and still is a hundred years later. Anderson, early in the book, talks about how various writers have described Lawrence, such as favoring Zionism - hating Zionism, pro-Israel-anti-Israel, hero - villain . The list goes on and on. At this juncture in time I do not believe it is possible to absolutely identify what Lawrence really was. It could not be done during his lifetime and cannot now, in my humble opinion.

He was very pro-Arab in that he strongly believed there would be no lasting peace in the Mid-East if the British did not honor their promise of a homeland to the Arabs. As I am sure you well know the British and French had promised the same land to both the Arabs and the Zionist; first to the Arabs if they helped England and later to the Zionist.

 

[wpe3bql]

Are you inferring 'serious Christians' are/were somehow obliged to support the Zionists?

I'm not inferring anything.

All my original post on this thread attempted to do was to give a little historical background concerning Lawrence and his activities.

I'd appreciate that people not read more into that post than I intended to do.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I'm not inferring anything.

All my original post on this thread attempted to do was to give a little historical background concerning Lawrence and his activities.

I'd appreciate that people not read more into that post than I intended to do.

Inferring what is not there is a big problem on this BB. It does seem that to a great extend the art of discussing is lost in our society, probably more so online then face-to-face. I feel there are some who purposely misunderstand and make misleading to derail the thread. Often these are one-line responses that have nothing to do with the topic of the thread.

Lawrence's comment on the establishment of a Jewish state has nothing to do with his beliefs or unbelief's. Indeed I have yet to read anything suggesting what he did or did not believe theologically. He was a man of his era, an Edwardian Englishman, very reserved, almost never revealing anything of his inner self, even to his own family.

 

[kyredneck]

I'm not inferring anything.

All my original post on this thread attempted to do was to give a little historical background concerning Lawrence and his activities.

I'd appreciate that people not read more into that post than I intended to do.

I didn't 'read' anything into it. It's why I asked. There's plenty here on BB that do believe it.

 

[kyredneck]

...It is surprising that the Arabs do not trust any promises made by a western government? ....

No surprises here.

“I feel it again to be my duty to point out that it seems to me and all the members of my Office acquainted with the Middle East that the policy which we are following in New York at the present time is contrary to the interests of the United States and will eventually involve us in international difficulties of so grave a character that the reaction throughout the world, as well as in this country, will be very strong....I wonder if the President realizes that the plan which we are supporting for Palestine leaves no force other than local law enforcement organizations for preserving order in Palestine. It is quite clear that there will be wide-scale violence in that country, on both the Jewish and Arab sides, with which the local authorities will not be able to cope....It seems to me we ought to think twice before we support any plan which would result in American troops going to Palestine.....“We are under no obligations to the Jews to set up a Jewish state. The Balfour Declaration and the Mandate provided not for a Jewish state, but for a Jewish national home. Neither the United States nor the British Government has ever interpreted the term ‘Jewish national home’ to be a Jewish national state.” Loy Henderson, director of the State Department’s Office of Near Eastern and African Affairs, 1947.

“The pressures to which this Government is now subjected are ones which impel us toward a position where we would shoulder major responsibility for the maintenance, and even the expansion, of a Jewish state in Palestine....If we do not effect a fairly radical reversal of the trend of our policy to date, we will end up either in the position of being ourselves militarily responsible for the protection of the Jewish population in Palestine against the declared hostility of the Arab world, or of sharing that responsibility with the Russians and thus assisting at their installation as one of the military powers of the area.” George Kennan, director of policy planning at the State Department, 1948.

“I’m sorry, gentlemen, but I have to answer to hundreds of thousands who are anxious for the success of Zionism. I do not have hundreds of thousands of Arabs among my constituents.” Harry Truman

Truman Overrode Strong State Department Warning Against Partitioning of Palestine in 1947