That, in a nutshell, is the problem. God is speaking, people are just not listening.
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If a person never hears about God, what will happen that person after death?
- Thread starter rednaut
- Start date
That, in a nutshell, is the problem. God is speaking, people are just not listening.
To continue on as the devil's advocate, I would answer that these folk who have never heard are not given a "second" or "last" chance because they never had a "first" chance to begin with.
Yes they are guilty but there is a pardon of which they are ignorant and "know not what they do" neither rejecting or accepting Him.
HankD
ashleysdad
Member
Two questions then:
1. If this is true that those who have never heard will be given opportunity when they stand before God then why do we continue to preach? After all if they have never heard then when they stand before God He will in effect be their witness and would He not be a more effective witness for Himself than we would be. So then by preaching to them (by this line of thought) we are actually robbing them of their chance to have God Himself witness to them personally so we should stop preaching and teaching and wait until everyone stands before God and let Him preach to everyone at once.
2. I understand that you are playing the devils advocate role in this but does the position that you are presenting have any, in context scripture to back up these claims? As of now I haven't seen any.
Because we are commanded to do so.
The second is more difficult
God does what He wills if it pleases Him:
Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Apparently it pleased God to save John the Baptist before He was born and had an opportunity to hear the word of God:
Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
Granted John the Baptist was a special case but so perhaps God considers the same of those who have never heard the gospel.
If all things are possible with God and it can be agreed that God is able to regenerate those who are ignorant of spiritual matters through no fault of their own such as infants who die an untimely death, then if it pleases Him, He is also able to regenerate the ignorant through no fault of their own due to the negligence of those who are commissioned to preach.
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Romans 10
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
HankD
freeatlast
New Member
You are reading into the text about John the Baptist. It never says he was saved before he was born (from his mothers womb). Balaam’s donkey, spoke by the power of the Spirit but the donkey was not saved. I would suggest not to read into the text that which is not there. At some point John did get saved, but not from his mother's womb. He had to come just like anyone else, by repentance and faith.
To be "filled with the Holy Ghost" implies a post regeneration experience.
Can someone who is not saved be "filled with the Holy Ghost"?
The text plainly says that John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb.
What could it possibly mean if he were not regenerated?
It does not say that he was simply used of the Holy Ghost or spake by the Spirit but was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb.
HankD
freeatlast
New Member
Hank I understand all of where you are coming from, however knowing what the bible says about salvation I find it dangerous to read into the text more then is there. I accept he was filled and that alone is a theological problem, but to add to the problem and state he was saved goes beyond what scripture says. We are warned not to add to the scripture and I am not going to add to it and say he was saved from the womb.
And I'm not willing to say that an unregenerate human being of any age can be "filled with the Holy Spirit".
Admitedly it is a "problem" passage (not for God but for us).
However that is not the issue of this debate.
Your thoughts concerning the issue of those who have not heard the gospel are similar to my own (not as the devil's advocate).
Personally I have a strong feeling, but not quite a conviction about those who are genuinely ignorant of the gospel apart from the fact that the judge of all the earth will do the right thing.
My feeling is that the lost do have enlightenment from God which is relevent to our salvation: Conviction of sin.
John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
The "world" is presently being reproved of sin as an on-going ministry of the Spirit without which we would see no need of calling upon Him to save us from sin and death.
If individuals do not accept the conviction of sin provided by the Spirit (which is apart from the participatory works of His children), He is just in not providing anymore light.
If there is acceptance then the light of the gospel will be provided via the "preacher" of Romans 10.
HankD
Not from an OT view. God filled people with His Spirit many times in order to accomplish His purpose.
Bezaleel
Balaam
Saul
How do you know that Bezaleel and Saul were not regenerate?
Also, I can't find where Balaam was filled with the Spirit but that the Spirit "came upon him"
Numbers 24:2 And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him.
Do you have a scripture which says he was filled with the Spirit?
HankD
The Spirit left Saul and God sent him a tormenting spirit. Bezaleel was given the Spirit in order to have the talent to craft things.
The Spirit wasn't "in" Balaam, but God's Spirit came upon him and God spoke through him, so God can put His Spirit upon unbelieving pagans as well as believers.
I can't prove whether or not any of these men went to their graves saved. I'm just making the point that God's Spirit can be in and on even the unbeliever if it serves His purpose. He can even speak through a donkey.
WestminsterMan
New Member
What about the mentally challenged or babies who die before they are capable of accepting Christ? According to some here, they all go straight to hell.
WM
freeatlast
New Member
I am not sure some here hold that view or not, but if so it is not a common one. The truth is the bible does not say outright about those issues. However there is a big difference between those who are incapable and those who reject initial light.
WestminsterMan
New Member
I agree with that statement. Yet a strictly legalistic reading of scripture often forces one into that particular corner. Clearly, not everything is written in scripture. It's my personal opinion that we cannot put God into a tidy little theological box. He just doesn't fit.
WM
freeatlast
New Member
I agree that we should never put God in a box other then the ones He puts Himself in. In regards to this topic scripture is clear if they do not hear, they cannot accept and they cannot be saved.
Have you read Romans 1? What do you think Paul is saying? How does someone exchange the truth for a lie without ever knowing the truth?
jonathan.borland
Active Member
Hey Everyone,
When thinking about this issue, I like stories like the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), the Pharisee and the Publican (Luke 18:9-14), the Lost Son (Luke 15:11-32), the Thief on the Cross (Luke 23:32-43), and also ones about those antichrists who honestly think they're saved but are not (Matt 7:15-29).
I think that man is depraved, his natural bent is to do evil all the time, and therefore in he would reject the natural revelation that is given to him, and for this reason we generally say that natural revelation is enough to condemn but not to save, and therefore we need to give a clear message of God's grace to everyone so that they might have a good chance of repenting and coming to God through faith in Jesus Christ. There is evidence that God gives special revelation (visions, angels, his Word, missionaries, etc.) to those who seek after him (like Cornelius). If some pagan out there is convicted by the Holy Spirit and beats on his breast to the God of heaven and earth and says, "Be merciful to me a sinner!" and then dies like the thief on the cross, is he saved? Perhaps this happens, but because of human depravity I think the frequency of this is not very high. That's why we need to go tell people to give them an honest chance. People have been quoting the verse about God being a just Judge. Let God be true and every man a liar.
Jonathan C. Borland
When thinking about this issue, I like stories like the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), the Pharisee and the Publican (Luke 18:9-14), the Lost Son (Luke 15:11-32), the Thief on the Cross (Luke 23:32-43), and also ones about those antichrists who honestly think they're saved but are not (Matt 7:15-29).
I think that man is depraved, his natural bent is to do evil all the time, and therefore in he would reject the natural revelation that is given to him, and for this reason we generally say that natural revelation is enough to condemn but not to save, and therefore we need to give a clear message of God's grace to everyone so that they might have a good chance of repenting and coming to God through faith in Jesus Christ. There is evidence that God gives special revelation (visions, angels, his Word, missionaries, etc.) to those who seek after him (like Cornelius). If some pagan out there is convicted by the Holy Spirit and beats on his breast to the God of heaven and earth and says, "Be merciful to me a sinner!" and then dies like the thief on the cross, is he saved? Perhaps this happens, but because of human depravity I think the frequency of this is not very high. That's why we need to go tell people to give them an honest chance. People have been quoting the verse about God being a just Judge. Let God be true and every man a liar.
Jonathan C. Borland
Alive in Christ
New Member
Not necessarily. If people would just beleive God when He says regarding those who have never heard, that He...
The *Light* of course being some form of saving revelation that can be accepted, or denied.
Not just the fortunate ones who hear the gosple of Jesus Christ...no. Every person who comes into the world.
First of all no child of God purposely says "I think I will chose not to believe God my father" At least not this one anyway.
There is a difference between not believing God and not fully understanding what He is saying.
There is also a difference between not believing God our Father and lacking wisdom.
If you have some helpful wisdom please share your gift.
So, are you refering to this passage AiC?
John 1
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
It doesn't exactly say the light of the gospel AiC which you seem to imply is not necessary to hear to be saved.
I always considered the light in this passage as the Spirit's reproval of sin.
I have no problem being corrected.
Do you see this passage as saying that this light is a wordless communication and must be accepted or rejected to be saved with or without the gospel?
I know that some Primitive Baptist believe a form of this doctrine.
That the children of God come into the world with a kind of pre-disposition to the things of God and in fact do not need to hear the gospel to be saved.
PB No-hellers believe that every man will be saved eventually.
I am genuinely interested, please explain your assertion further.
Thanks
HankD
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