If anyone care about facts.

[Particular]

I believe God and his word.



Did Christ die for me particular? Can you give me the HONEST Gospel?

Give us the gospel.

Has Christ saved you? Do you believe you are saved solely by the substitutionary death and atonement of Christ Jesus on the cross? Do you believe that Jesus proved the payment by rising again to new life on the third day?
What is your answer?
Jesus atonement is for those who believe, utilyan. Do you believe?

 

[Benjamin]

....it's about the Gnosticism that Augustine infected the Church with, if that's not what you want to talk about....then why respond?
If you aren't interested in the O.P....why respond at all?

I just don't want this thread off course, it isn't whether Calvinism (so-called) is right or wrong, it's about Historical Theology.

I wish to engage with the content of the video....
If you sish to discuss that, then, by all means, I don't want the discussion to go beyond that.

Well, obviously there is no respect for staying on topic here, although, you/we already knew that. I tried to help by taking the time to summarize with specifics as someone requested yet, the next 12 posts went off on typical tangent off-topic bickering. But, nice try at attempting to construct a meaningful debate.

 

[Reformed1689]

This is why they have so much trouble with simple grammar and the meaning of words.

Which isn't even true. You however have shown an inability to read context.

I have yet to meet a Calvinist on this board who does not claim to be and proud of it to boot Why there are so many who completely understand Biblical Greek The scholars who translate the scriptures for us should be ashamed of all the mistakes they've made according to these so called Greek masters.

What in the world are you talking about?

 

[utilyan]

Has Christ saved you? Do you believe you are saved solely by the substitutionary death and atonement of Christ Jesus on the cross? Do you believe that Jesus proved the payment by rising again to new life on the third day?
What is your answer?
Jesus atonement is for those who believe, utilyan. Do you believe?

What I'm trying to get from you particular, is what particular(pun) details are necessary and minimum required knowledge so as to fully received the gospel. Acceptance of it being an action of God.

The details given now were not given in 1 Corinthians 15.

That is why I specified what is the minimum the candidate to receive regeneration require to know? If one line of scripture is enough or must he know genesis to revelations.

One thing being clear here. Particular Gnosis is required for their salvation. Salvation is proven based on how perfectly you understand and IF you understand the gospel.

Give me the correct GOSPEL, with all the bells and whistles required knowledge of "atonement", "payment" as you would a person who has NO KNOWLEDGE of Christianity or Jesus.

Imagine I know nothing of God, religion, ect. How do you share the COMPLETE gospel with me? At what point in sharing information you can draw the line and say he has been told the gospel.

 

[Particular]

What I'm trying to get from you particular, is what particular(pun) details are necessary and minimum required knowledge so as to fully received the gospel. Acceptance of it being an action of God.

The details given now were not given in 1 Corinthians 15.

That is why I specified what is the minimum the candidate to receive regeneration require to know? If one line of scripture is enough or must he know genesis to revelations.

One thing being clear here. Particular Gnosis is required for their salvation. Salvation is proven based on how perfectly you understand and IF you understand the gospel.

Give me the correct GOSPEL, with all the bells and whistles required knowledge of "atonement", "payment" as you would a person who has NO KNOWLEDGE of Christianity or Jesus.

Imagine I know nothing of God, religion, ect. How do you share the COMPLETE gospel with me? At what point in sharing information you can draw the line and say he has been told the gospel.

Ephesians 2:1-10 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

That's it.

Ultimately, however, not one human will respond in faith if God does not first quicken them.
How God chooses to do this is infinite in possibility.
How quickly do you think it took God to save the terrorist, Saul, on the road to Damascus?

 

[utilyan]

Ephesians 2:1-10 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

That's it.

Ultimately, however, not one human will respond in faith if God does not first quicken them.
How God chooses to do this is infinite in possibility.
How quickly do you think it took God to save the terrorist, Saul, on the road to Damascus?

There is an issue with your message there. If I told a stranger to Christianity and religion what you are saying right there "even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved"

You and me understand those "we", "you" and "us" terms.

But you are telling a complete stranger "For by grace you have been saved through faith. "

Is this true? Am I allowed to say to a complete stranger "YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED" That God has a "the great love with which he loved us"

I'm perfectly hearing my Gospel. Are you sure you are hearing yours?

 

[Reformed1689]

There is an issue with your message there. If I told a stranger to Christianity and religion what you are saying right there "even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved"

You and me understand those "we", "you" and "us" terms.

But you are telling a complete stranger "For by grace you have been saved through faith. "

Is this true? Am I allowed to say to a complete stranger "YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED" That God has a "the great love with which he loved us"

I'm perfectly hearing my Gospel. Are you sure you are hearing yours?

You make the ridiculous assumption that one would just read the verses with no exposition following.

 

[Particular]

There is an issue with your message there. If I told a stranger to Christianity and religion what you are saying right there "even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved"

You and me understand those "we", "you" and "us" terms.

But you are telling a complete stranger "For by grace you have been saved through faith. "

Is this true? Am I allowed to say to a complete stranger "YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED" That God has a "the great love with which he loved us"

I'm perfectly hearing my Gospel. Are you sure you are hearing yours?

The big issue is that you don't think God can save a person just by sharing his word and nothing else.
I have purposely shared scripture because...
...The word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
~ Hebrews 4:12-13
Utilyan, I will trust God's word over mine every single time. Why do we imagine we are essential to God accomplishing what he wills? Would God somehow fail without us? No.
God is pleased to use us. It brings glory to his name when the former rebel tells other rebels about the means to reconciliation with the King of Kings.

 

[utilyan]

You make the ridiculous assumption that one would just read the verses with no exposition following.

That's absolutely correct.

I'm asking for the bare minimum. So if you require exposition, give it to us now. For your own regeneration you are now admitting the scripture verse was not enough and required some exposition.

I never even said you need a bible. Like if your on a island with a non-christian what need be said so you can tell yourself the whole gospel or sufficient enough as God plans for their regeneration. (maybe you don't have bible on the island)

 

[utilyan]

The big issue is that you don't think God can save a person just by sharing his word and nothing else.
I have purposely shared scripture because...
...The word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
~ Hebrews 4:12-13
Utilyan, I will trust God's word over mine every single time. Why do we imagine we are essential to God accomplishing what he wills? Would God somehow fail without us? No.
God is pleased to use us. It brings glory to his name when the former rebel tells other rebels about the means to reconciliation with the King of Kings.

"The big issue is that you don't think God can save a person just by sharing his word and nothing else."

It worked for me I do believe. But look at your friend above your post.....he says exposition is required.

Again I COULD without having to give explanation say and with a straight face tell any stranger:

4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

You cannot tell a complete stranger GOD LOVES THEM. When you preach the gospel to a stranger it involves NOT MENTIONING LIMITED ATONEMENT.

In order for you to tell the gospel correctly you would have to make changes,

I would have to say "because of His great love with which He might have for you"

Else I would be lying to a possible reprobate.


Again what needs to be said to a complete stranger to Christianity, someone who does not know who Jesus is.

 

[Reformed1689]

For your own regeneration you are now admitting the scripture verse was not enough and required some exposition.

That particular verse needs exposition yes. I wouldn't be presenting that verse when talking about the Gospel necessarily.

 

[Particular]

"The big issue is that you don't think God can save a person just by sharing his word and nothing else."

It worked for me I do believe. But look at your friend above your post.....he says exposition is required.

Again I COULD without having to give explanation say and with a straight face tell any stranger:

4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

You cannot tell a complete stranger GOD LOVES THEM. When you preach the gospel to a stranger it involves NOT MENTIONING LIMITED ATONEMENT.

In order for you to tell the gospel correctly you would have to make changes,

I would have to say "because of His great love with which He might have for you"

Else I would be lying to a possible reprobate.


Again what needs to be said to a complete stranger to Christianity, someone who does not know who Jesus is.

I can tell a stranger that God made them in His image, but sin has separated us from our Creator. There is hope for reconciliation if you believe that you are a sinner who desperately needs saving. Call upon the Lord. Confess your sins and repent. Will you do this today?

If they are opposed to that, I know God has not presently chosen to graciously save them. If they are receptive to that, I know that God is choosing to graciously save them and cleanse them.
Our difference is that you ascribe the work to the person responding while I ascribe the work to God who is making a dead person come to life right before my very eyes.

 

[utilyan]

That particular verse needs exposition yes. I wouldn't be presenting that verse when talking about the Gospel necessarily.

I understand this. So maybe you can give a post of "WHAT NEED BE SAID" For your gospel to preached correctly.
I understand if I am a Calvinist I only need to express "WHAT NEED BE SAID", AND then LET GOD DO IT ALL.



I simply word for word can use the scriptures. Gospel means GOOD NEWS.

For example I can tell everyone on the face of the earth:
31but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Been written so that you may believe.

If it said SO YOU MAY or Might do your homework. It is easily understood that this gospel is conveying the capacity to do homework.

The CAPACITY is built-IN the gospel, the MEANS by which God chose.

WORD for WORD. No adding, not taking away. Even though you only hear my voice, This is God declaring his son to be your savior.

 

[utilyan]

I can tell a stranger that God made them in His image, but sin has separated us from our Creator. There is hope for reconciliation if you believe that you are a sinner who desperately needs saving. Call upon the Lord. Confess your sins and repent. Will you do this today?

If they are opposed to that, I know God has not presently chosen to graciously save them. If they are receptive to that, I know that God is choosing to graciously save them and cleanse them.
Our difference is that you ascribe the work to the person responding while I ascribe the work to God who is making a dead person come to life right before my very eyes.

"Our difference is that you ascribe the work to the person responding while I ascribe the work to God who is making a dead person come to life right before my very eyes"

Every act of Kindness, Goodness and Love I have ever committed absolutely has God as its source, including this post.

"needs saving." Is this true for everyone on earth? I'm going to be very nit picky about exactly what you communicate.

 

[Reformed1689]

I understand this. So maybe you can give a post of "WHAT NEED BE SAID" For your gospel to preached correctly.
I understand if I am a Calvinist I only need to express "WHAT NEED BE SAID", AND then LET GOD DO IT ALL.

Why do you think Calvinism preaches some different Gospel than what is in Scripture? I don't understand your line of reason/questioning.

 

[Particular]

Every act of Kindness, Goodness and Love I have ever committed absolutely has God as its source, including this post.

That is a nice sentiment, but it is also false. Before God redeemed you, you did acts of kindness, goodness and love that were entirely selfish in nature. God was not the source of your actions at all. You were the source of your actions as you did everything for your glory, not God's.
Now that you have been redeemed, the source of your actions has been changed by God's gracious work.

"needs saving." Is this true for everyone on earth? I'm going to be very nit picky about exactly what you communicate.

First, I don't know where that quote comes from or the context in which it is said.
Second, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way" so indeed, all humanity is dead in sin (needs saving). You cannot save yourself.
Romans 3:21-26 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Utilyan, it is obvious that you fight against the bit of God's Sovereign control over your life. What are you so afraid that God will do if you submit all of yourself to God?

 

[utilyan]

Why do you think Calvinism preaches some different Gospel than what is in Scripture? I don't understand your line of reason/questioning.

I believe it is. I believe the only way you can truly express the Gospel to a NON-CHRISTIAN is by TULIP not by Scripture alone.

David you are charged with delivering the gospel, I want to see you do it without tripping over your own theology.

You can't walk up to a stranger and say : 16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

He is not going to instantly understand TULIP and he is going to understand world to mean world.

He is not going to read: 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
And then conclude ALL does not mean ALL.

"I don't understand your line of reason/questioning." I want to know exactly "WHAT NEEDS BE SAID" It doesn't matter of its not biblical or biblical. I want to know everything that is required of you to convey to where you understand the GOSPEL has been spoken.

Treat me like a child, with no religion, no knowledge of Jesus. Give me the Gospel.

 

[utilyan]

That is a nice sentiment, but it is also false. Before God redeemed you, you did acts of kindness, goodness and love that were entirely selfish in nature. God was not the source of your actions at all. You were the source of your actions as you did everything for your glory, not God's.
Now that you have been redeemed, the source of your actions has been changed by God's gracious work.

First, I don't know where that quote comes from or the context in which it is said.
Second, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way" so indeed, all humanity is dead in sin (needs saving). You cannot save yourself.
Romans 3:21-26 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Utilyan, it is obvious that you fight against the bit of God's Sovereign control over your life. What are you so afraid that God will do if you submit all of yourself to God?

IF God does not want someone saved then obviously they don't need saving.


Jesus Christ made it clear. If Satan is divided against himself his house cannot stand. This is what he said in response to the SAME accusation that his acts of love were not from God but were from the Devil.

If any act of Kindness, Goodness or Love does not have GOD as its source, THEN it is NOT KINDNESS at all, NOT GOODNESS at all, NOT LOVE at all. period. Don't call EVIL things GOOD and GOOD THINGS EVIL.

Jesus Christ is my Lord and I can tell you that every single act of GOOD comes from God alone.


Romans 2

14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

The LAW is written in the heart, the conscience bears witness, not only in the defense of a person but ACCUSING THEM AS WELL.


God will judge the secrets, that is God knows my SINCEREST HEART, There is no tricking God, no pretending, He knows exactly what I mean and knows if I do his will or not.


"Utilyan, it is obvious that you fight against the bit of God's Sovereign control over your life. What are you so afraid that God will do if you submit all of yourself to God?"

Impossible.

You need revise and perfectly understand the concept of IRRESISTIBLE GRACE. You are not understanding nor believing your own theology.

Under your theology it is absolutely impossible for me to derail, sabotage, resist God's Grace. Equally it is impossible for me to support, help, or improve my chances of God's grace.

You understand? I don't have a problem with WHAT you believe. I got a problem with YOU not BELIEVING what you SAY you believe.

I want to wring your soul and squeeze out SINCERITY, SELF HONESTY.

 

[Particular]

IF God does not want someone saved then obviously they don't need saving.

Wow, that is a false conclusion.
All humanity is in desperate need of salvation.
God is not, however, obligated to save them.
Why?
Because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Because the wages of sin is death.
Because Justice is an act of love.

 

[Reformed1689]

I believe it is. I believe the only way you can truly express the Gospel to a NON-CHRISTIAN is by TULIP not by Scripture alone.

David you are charged with delivering the gospel, I want to see you do it without tripping over your own theology.

You can't walk up to a stranger and say : 16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

He is not going to instantly understand TULIP and he is going to understand world to mean world.

He is not going to read: 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
And then conclude ALL does not mean ALL.

"I don't understand your line of reason/questioning." I want to know exactly "WHAT NEEDS BE SAID" It doesn't matter of its not biblical or biblical. I want to know everything that is required of you to convey to where you understand the GOSPEL has been spoken.

Treat me like a child, with no religion, no knowledge of Jesus. Give me the Gospel.

Romans 3. We are all sinners and in need of salvation.
Romans 10. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ that God has raised him from the dead and confess with your mouth that He is Lord and you will be saved.