If anyone care about facts.

[utilyan]

Wow, that is a false conclusion.
All humanity is in desperate need of salvation.
God is not, however, obligated to save them.
Why?
Because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Because the wages of sin is death.
Because Justice is an act of love.

He NEVER loved them. Ergo do not require saving. You don't need to "save" murder, for example.


"God is not, however, obligated to save them."

God obligates to save everyone.

"Because Justice is an act of love."

Perfect Justice never involves retribution or the suffering of another.

"Because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Even if you never sin, you fall short of the glory of God.


The perfect character of God is Jesus Christ, not Hitler.

 

[utilyan]

Romans 3. We are all sinners and in need of salvation.
Romans 10. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ that God has raised him from the dead and confess with your mouth that He is Lord and you will be saved.

Quote the verses.

 

[Reformed1689]

God obligates to save everyone.

Not biblical.

Perfect Justice never involves retribution or the suffering of another.

Based on?

Quote the verses.

I already gave you the references. Feel free to look it up.

 

[Particular]

He NEVER loved them. Ergo do not require saving. You don't need to "save" murder, for example.

???

God obligates to save everyone.

Nope. If he did, everyone would, by God's obligation, be saved. So, you are either a universalist, or you are wrong.

Perfect Justice never involves retribution or the suffering of another.

Then you don't believe in hell, or you don't believe Jesus exacts perfect justice. Which is it?

Even if you never sin, you fall short of the glory of God.

Well, here's a serious heresy. If you are correct, Jesus falls short of the glory of God since, as a human, he never sinned. Yet, you claim a sinless person still falls short of the glory of God.

The perfect character of God is Jesus Christ, not Hitler.

No kidding. May I ask who claimed the perfect character of God is Hitler? I'm quite sure no one at the BB made that claim. Could you provide a link?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

As this thread draws to a close, I wonder why an RC is involved with it. I've always thought the C/A debate was a Protestant\Baptist kerfluffle. To me, it's like I as a Baptist got involved in an RCC/EOC debate.

 

[utilyan]

Not biblical.

Based on?

I already gave you the references. Feel free to look it up.

"not biblical"
Oh so you don't have to preach the gospel to everyone.

"Based On?"

True Justice is restorative to the balance and the Hebrew word is equivalent to mercy.


"I already gave you the references. Feel free to look it up"

So when a non-christian reads: 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Hes going to believe it. Rather than man is saved first, made righteous, and then can believe.


Romans 3 stresses equality, Romans 10 stresses mercy even to turn those in state of damnation.


"We are all sinners and in need of salvation.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ that God has raised him from the dead and confess with your mouth that He is Lord and you will be saved."

I can state with you said HONESTLY. You a preaching my gospel. Nothing there about Limited Atonement

Because Limited Atonement is NOT the gospel correct? <--- Remember I want what "NEED BE SAID"

 

[utilyan]

As this thread draws to a close, I wonder why an RC is involved with it. I've always thought the C/A debate was a Protestant\Baptist kerfluffle. To me, it's like I as a Baptist got involved in an RCC/EOC debate.

Calvinism was an attempt to Reform the Catholic Church.

I think the character of God is the most "unique" in Calvinism.

I don't want to misrepresent ,I could be wrong, but in my opinion it appears The character of God in Calvinism is evil, Its Cold shoulder, against compassion in the guise of "no emotionalism", Mercy is non-existent.

They have above all other christian denominations the worst version of God to quote other protestants

John Wesley:

2. Such blasphemy this, as one would think might make the ears of a Christian to tingle! But there is yet more behind; for just as it honours the Son, so doth this doctrine honour the Father. It destroys all his attributes at once: It overturns both his justice, mercy, and truth; yea, it represents the most holy God as worse than the devil, as both more false, more cruel, and more unjust. More false; because the devil, liar as he is, hath never said, “He willeth all men to be saved:” More unjust; because the devil cannot, if he would, be guilty of such injustice as you ascribe to God, when you say that God condemned millions of souls to everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels, for continuing in sin, which, for want of that grace he will not give them, they cannot avoid: And more cruel; because that unhappy spirit “seeketh rest and findeth none;” so that his own restless misery is a kind of temptation to him to tempt others. But God resteth in his high and holy place; so that to suppose him, of his own mere motion, of his pure will and pleasure, happy as he is, to doom his creatures, whether they will or no, to endless misery, is to impute such cruelty to him as we cannot impute even to the great enemy of God and man. It is to represent the high God (he that hath ears to hear let him hear!) as more cruel, false, and unjust than the devil!

3. This is the blasphemy clearly contained in the horrible decree of predestination! And here I fix my foot. On this I join issue with every assertor of it. You represent God as worse than the devil; more false, more cruel, more unjust. But you say you will prove it by scripture. Hold! What will you prove by Scripture? That God is worse than the devil? It cannot be. Whatever that Scripture proves, it never proved this; whatever its true meaning be. This cannot be its true meaning. Do you ask, “What is its true meaning then?” If I say, ” I know not,” you have gained nothing; for there are many scriptures the true sense whereof neither you nor I shall know till death is swallowed up in victory. But this I know, better it were to say it had no sense, than to say it had such a sense as this. It cannot mean, whatever it mean besides, that the God of truth is a liar. Let it mean what it will, it cannot mean that the Judge of all the world is unjust. No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works; that is, whatever it prove beside, no scripture can prove predestination.

John Wesley Charges that Calvinism Makes God Out to Be Worse than the Devil

 

[Reformed1689]

Oh so you don't have to preach the gospel to everyone.

How do you get that from what I said?

True Justice is restorative to the balance and the Hebrew word is equivalent to mercy.

You are going to have to do better than just make a claim. Back it up.

So when a non-christian reads: 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Hes going to believe it. Rather than man is saved first, made righteous, and then can believe.

He's only going to believe it if his disposition is to believe it. Remember, there are none, in their natural state, that seek after God. Why are you trying to force TULIP into a Gospel presentation? I will honestly tell you that rarely, if ever, would a Calvinist bring up the doctrines of grace in that detail while evangelizing.

I can state with you said HONESTLY. You a preaching my gospel. Nothing there about Limited Atonement

What does that prove? Nothing.

 

[Reformed1689]

I don't want to misrepresent ,I could be wrong, but in my opinion it appears The character of God in Calvinism is evil, Its Cold shoulder, against compassion in the guise of "no emotionalism", Mercy is non-existent.

Yeah you are misrepresenting.

 

[utilyan]

How do you get that from what I said?

You are going to have to do better than just make a claim. Back it up.

He's only going to believe it if his disposition is to believe it. Remember, there are none, in their natural state, that seek after God. Why are you trying to force TULIP into a Gospel presentation? I will honestly tell you that rarely, if ever, would a Calvinist bring up the doctrines of grace in that detail while evangelizing.

What does that prove? Nothing.

"Why are you trying to force TULIP into a Gospel presentation? I will honestly tell you that rarely, if ever, would a Calvinist bring up the doctrines of grace in that detail while evangelizing."

That is the point. TULIP and the doctrines of grace are not the Gospel. Doesn't it strike you as deceptive for a person not to present the whole truth? I should be asking you why are you trying to force TULIP and the doctrines of grace into the gospel.

"What does that prove? Nothing."

It proves there is no limited atonement.

 

[MB]

Yeah you are misrepresenting.

Calvinism does paint God as not loving the world. Not loving, is not God because, God is Love.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

Doesn't it strike you as deceptive for a person not to present the whole truth?

This is just ignorant. Do you literally go through a whole systematic theology of the Bible every time you present the Gospel? Nonsense.

It proves there is no limited atonement.

It proves nothing of the sort. It doesn't deal with the topic.

Calvinism does paint God as not loving the world. Not loving, is not God because, God is Love.

Interesting, then why does God command us to "not love the world" because if any loves the world the Father is not in him? You are taking simple English and using that for your theology rather than actually explore what Scripture says.

 

[utilyan]

This is just ignorant. Do you literally go through a whole systematic theology of the Bible every time you present the Gospel? Nonsense.


It proves nothing of the sort. It doesn't deal with the topic.


Interesting, then why does God command us to "not love the world" because if any loves the world the Father is not in him? You are taking simple English and using that for your theology rather than actually explore what Scripture says.

"This is just ignorant. Do you literally go through a whole systematic theology of the Bible every time you present the Gospel? Nonsense."

I can deliver your entire system in one line.--> If God loves you , you will be saved and If God hates you, you will be damned.

Tell me that one line above is false.

I can deliver my entire gospel with one word. --> JESUS.


I can quote what is written WITHOUT deception of meaning. You couldn't preach the with the truth up front.


"Interesting, then why does God command us to "not love the world" because if any loves the world the Father is not in him? You are taking simple English and using that for your theology rather than actually explore what Scripture says."

John 3:16 GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD

16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

When God says don't love the world he is talking about worldliness like money, drugs, sex, alcohol, Just like the prodigal son fell and was dead in worldliness. The worldliness that still make people suffer today.


Of course Love and kindness is repulsive to those who are evil.

God Is Love.

 

[MB]

This is just ignorant. Do you literally go through a whole systematic theology of the Bible every time you present the Gospel? Nonsense.


It proves nothing of the sort. It doesn't deal with the topic.


Interesting, then why does God command us to "not love the world" because if any loves the world the Father is not in him? You are taking simple English and using that for your theology rather than actually explore what Scripture says.

Do you deny the word "world" can mean different things. Funny I remember you protesting that the word world ment everyone in jn 3:16. Now it's the opposite. I understand that the truth is what you are avoiding each time you refuse to take an honest look at what scripture actually says. Does ignorance run in your family? Maybe it's predetermined that you don't understand simple English.
By the way God does not command us not to love the world. There is no such commandment.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

Do you deny the word "world" can mean different things.

No absolutely not.

Funny I remember you protesting that the word world ment everyone in jn 3:16. Now it's the opposite. I understand that the truth is what you are avoiding each time you refuse to take an honest look at what scripture actually says.

I believe I have said, specifically, that while everyone receives general grace from God, God does not love every person equally. Those who are not saved are under the wrath of God.

Does ignorance run in your family? Maybe it's predetermined that you don't understand simple English.

Not sure why you must go to ad hominem.

By the way God does not command us not to love the world. There is no such commandment.

Really? I actually quoted that direct from Scripture, but you know, I guess that doesn't matter.

 

[Reformed1689]

I can deliver your entire system in one line.--> If God loves you , you will be saved and If God hates you, you will be damned.

Strawman

I can deliver my entire gospel with one word. --> JESUS.

Your entire Gospel is Jesus? You realize that actually doesn't tell anyone anything right?

I can quote what is written WITHOUT deception of meaning. You couldn't preach the with the truth up front.

I don't know why you think I can't do the same thing.

When God says don't love the world he is talking about worldliness like money, drugs, sex, alcohol, Just like the prodigal son fell and was dead in worldliness. The worldliness that still make people suffer today.

I'm very aware of what it is talking about I was making a point about the meanings of words.

 

[Particular]

I can deliver my entire gospel with one word. --> JESUS.

LOL, is he the Mexican dude living down the block?

My point is...you are deluded if you think saying one word is an explanation of the gospel. You know what you mean by that word, but the majority of humanity will look at you like a deer in the headlights and wait for you to hit them with an explanation.

1 Peter 3:14-17 But even if you should suffer for righteousness’ sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God’s will, than for doing evil.

 

[MB]

No absolutely not.

I believe I have said, specifically, that while everyone receives general grace from God, God does not love every person equally. Those who are not saved are under the wrath of God.


Not sure why you must go to ad hominem.

Really? I actually quoted that direct from Scripture, but you know, I guess that doesn't matter.

Then show the reference to the commandment by giving me book chapter and verse. It seems you took that out of context or something. Just because you claim it's in scripture does not make it so.. I believe you are wrong it is not a commandment.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

Then show the reference to the commandment by giving me book chapter and verse. It seems you took that out of context or something. Just because you claim it's in scripture does not make it so.. I believe you are wrong it is not a commandment.
MB

Clearly you do not know your Bible well enough. Look it up. Get a concordance.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 6:05 PM Pacific.