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If Calvinism is true, then Christ died for God's sins

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Guido

Active Member
We know that according to Calvinism, God predestinated some to be saved and some to be lost, God passing over the lost because no one seeks after him. If no one seeks after him, why? because they have no free will. If they have free will, why can't they seek after him? If there free will is in bondage, who put them in that bondage? Did God alter their free will so that they would only sin? Then God is directly responsible for their sin; because he bound their free will, forcing them to do nothing but sin. Therefore, when Christ died on the cross, according to Calvinism, he died for the sins not only of man, but of God.
 
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Silverhair

Well-Known Member
We know that according to Calvinism, God predestinated some to be saved and some to be lost, God passing over the lost because no one seeks after him. If no one seeks after him, why? because they have no free will. If they have free will, why can't they seek after him? If there free will is in bondage, who put them in that bondage? Did God alter their free will so that they would only sin? Then God is directly responsible for their sin; because they bound their free will, forcing them to do nothing but sin. Therefore, when Christ died on the cross, according to Calvinism, he died for the sins not only man, but God.

A different way of saying it but that is what I have been saying for a long time on here. Calvinists do not want to look at the logical outcome of their theology. They would rather just say we do not understand calvinism and in one way they are right. I really do not understand how anyone could think calvinism is biblical.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
We know that according to Calvinism, God predestinated some to be saved and some to be lost, God passing over the lost because no one seeks after him. If no one seeks after him, why? because they have no free will. If they have free will, why can't they seek after him? If there free will is in bondage, who put them in that bondage? Did God alter their free will so that they would only sin? Then God is directly responsible for their sin; because they bound their free will, forcing them to do nothing but sin. Therefore, when Christ died on the cross, according to Calvinism, he died for the sins not only man, but God.
This is blasphemy.
What a profane statement.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
We know that according to Calvinism, God predestinated some to be saved and some to be lost, God passing over the lost because no one seeks after him. If no one seeks after him, why? because they have no free will. If they have free will, why can't they seek after him? If there free will is in bondage, who put them in that bondage? Did God alter their free will so that they would only sin? Then God is directly responsible for their sin; because they bound their free will, forcing them to do nothing but sin. Therefore, when Christ died on the cross, according to Calvinism, he died for the sins not only man, but God.
That's the blasphemy of Calvinism..
No, that's the blasphemy that you conclude simply because you are ignorant regarding God's word.
You won't find one reformed Christian who holds what you proclaim.

Good luck convincing even honest Arminians that your assertion is true.

I am impressed however with the mental gymnastics you went through only to fall on your face. Is Silverhair giving you lessons or are you related. What you wrote has the telltale earmarks of an S1 Twister (Silverhair twister)

I have one suggestion for you. Stop talking and go find a quite place where you can spend the next 15 years reading your Bible. Do what Paul did after Damascus and go isolate yourself to just read the Bible. You are not ready for a theological conversation and there is too much tornado in you to be worth talking to.

This will be my only comment on this thread.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
No, that's the blasphemy that you conclude simply because you are ignorant regarding God's word.
You won't find one reformed Christian who holds what you proclaim.

Good luck convincing even honest Arminians that your assertion is true.

I am impressed however with the mental gymnastics you went through only to fall on your face. Is Silverhair giving you lessons or are you related. What you wrote has the telltale earmarks of an S1 Twister (Silverhair twister)

I have one suggestion for you. Stop talking and go find a quite place where you can spend the next 15 years reading your Bible. Do what Paul did after Damascus and go isolate yourself to just read the Bible. You are not ready for a theological conversation and there is too much tornado in you to be worth talking to.

This will be my only comment on this thread.

Not ignorant of Gods' word just not willing to fall into line with the calvinist way of thinking.

Read his post, try to be honest with yourself. It is the writings that you hold to that put God in that position. You can not say God decrees all things and then not expect people that read those words with an open mind to come to the conclusion that you are saying that God determines all sin. That you would hold to and defend writings that would lead anyone to that conclusion I find quite disheartening.
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
We know that according to Calvinism, God predestinated some to be saved and some to be lost, God passing over the lost because no one seeks after him.
Respectfully, I know that according to the Bible, God chose believers ( Christ's sheep ) in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).

Also according to the Scriptures, God not only passes over the lost, He does not do so because none seek Him...
For that is mankind's current spiritual state, hearts hardened and minds willfully darkened due to sin and a love for it ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20, Ephesians 4:17-19 ).

He does so because it's His choice to have mercy on some and not others ( See Romans 9:14-24 ).
If no one seeks after him, why? because they have no free will.
I agree.

According to what God says in many places ( Jeremiah 13:23, Psalms 10, Psalms 14, Psalms 53, Romans 1, Romans 2, Romans 3 ),
mankind as a race will not come to God ( John 5:40 among others ).

So, it's not an issue of God not being fair and creating us with a free and unbiased will...
it's an issue of Him creating men and allowing us to go on in our current state of not wanting to come to Him in repentance, which is a direct result of our love of sin and hatred of God.

In other words, our will as unregenerate individuals and as a group, is biased against God and His ways,
it is not free in the sense of "neutral".
We start out from our mothers' wombs as destitute sinners who are slaves to our disobedience ( Psalms 58:3 ).

If you wish to blame the Lord for creating individuals and allowing them to go on in their natural state, then I cannot stop you from thinking ill of Him.
However, Romans 9:6-24 addresses this in detail.
 
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Dave G

Well-Known Member
If they have free will, why can't they seek after him?
See above.
Because our will is in bondage to sin.
If there free will is in bondage, who put them in that bondage?
We did, and the Lord gave us over to that which we love:
Romans 1:18-32.

I'll use the analogy of clay and a potter...
God creates vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath from the same tainted clay, a clay that we tainted.
Did God alter their free will so that they would only sin?
No.
It is a natural consequence of sin...

It blinds us to God's ways and acts as a spiral "toilet"...
The more we sin, the more we love it and the more we disregard God and His commands.

It functions like an addiction because to us, it's pleasurable and reflects our deep-seated desire to go our own way and not God's way.
 
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Dave G

Well-Known Member
Then God is directly responsible for their sin; because he bound their free will, forcing them to do nothing but sin.
With all due respect, it seems that you don't understand man's condition as outlined by the Lord in His word...
Which bears witness to our deplorable and self-serving condition outside of the miracle of the new birth.
Therefore, when Christ died on the cross, according to Calvinism, he died for the sins not only of man, but of God.
I think you're forgetting that according to His word, God cannot sin, neither does He encourage it ( James 1:13 ).
Where you come to this conclusion I do not know, my friend.

I encourage you to dig deeper into it for the answers to your questions.


May He bless you richly in your studies.
 
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37818

Well-Known Member
1) Romans 3:11, ". . . There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. . . ."

2) 1 Peter 1:2, ". . . Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience . . . ."

3) Matthew 22:14, ". . . For many are called, but few are chosen. . . .". Matthew 20:28, ". . . Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. . . .

4) Luke 8:13, ". . . they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. . . ."

5) John 10:27-28, ". . . My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. . . ."

6) Ephesians 2:8, ". . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God . . . ."
 

timdabap

Member
We know that according to Calvinism, God predestinated some to be saved and some to be lost, God passing over the lost because no one seeks after him.
{/QUOTE]
Your post starts in error. In fairness to Calvinists, not ALL Calvinists affirm that God predestinated anyone to be lost. Also, your post displays a misunderstanding of "predestination". Predestination, in a strictly Biblical way, refers, chiefly, to the final destiny of the elect and that is "to be conformed to the image of Christ" in eternity, in heaven, not in this time world.(Ephesians 1:5; Romans 8:29).
................ If there free will is in bondage, who put them in that bondage?
The natural man does not have free will. That man cannot choose, nor desire, to follow God, in the way, shape and form that God wants followed which is in spirit and in Truth (John 4:23). The natural man's will is bound to his sin-dead nature which nature is in opposition to God. (1 Corinthians 2:14) That is why God decreed the New Birth.

Did God alter their free will so that they would only sin? Then God is directly responsible for their sin; because he bound their free will, forcing them to do nothing but sin. Therefore, when Christ died on the cross, according to Calvinism, he died for the sins not only of man, but of God.
(/QUOTE]
Yup. Always God's fault, isn't it ?
A man smokes five packs a day, KNOWING and AWARE that he could get cancer and die, and when he does, who does he blame whether vocally or silently ? God.
Or he/she drinks alcohol like water, knowing it could lead to liver disease, or lung disease, or whatever disease, and when it does and he lies there wasting away, he often grumbles: if God is, why did He let this happen to me ? Yup, God is at fault, God is the perennial whipping boy.
God tells Adam, "on the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt SURELY die." they eat. they died. their otherwise sin-free will (catch that ?) is corrupted, and find out they were naked, and they hide from the God who created them, fellowshipped with them, and provided everything they would ever need in that garden, and were driven out of that garden, and they blamed God for their woes and sin.
Yup.
God's fault.

Out of the garden and therefore in labor for their needs, they become slaves to Egypt, wails, God frees them, going before them as a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night, destroying the Egyptians out to bring them back to slavery, and in the wilderness God provides them water from a rock and manna from heaven, and they turn and blame God for giving them Moses to lead them.
Yup.
God's fault.
Always is.

Finally, God, in a time He pre-determined, becomes His own Son, puts on the form of a slave, a man, lives the obedient, sanctified, sin-free, life they are unable to live in their corrupted state, offers Himself to Himself in the Person of Christ, as a burnt offering to atone for their sins with His own blood, and guess what ?
Some people mock Him for it simply because they do not understand their sinfulness, or maybe accept responsibility for their sinfulness and rebellion, and His grace and mercy.
yeah, I know, for this last line, my post might be deleted, or censored, but I don't care.
It is as I put it.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Then why do so many calvinists deny the text of the bible? Why do so many calvinists still say faith is a work?
@Iconoclast, do you deny any specific text in the Bible? Do you redact verses so they don't exist? No? I didn't think so.

Does faith do good works? Did Jesus author faith? Does Jesus finish faith?

Does God first save, then second, justify by faith?

Or, do dead in sins people, generate their own faith to believe, which causes Go to save them?
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
@Iconoclast, do you deny any specific text in the Bible? Do you redact verses so they don't exist? No? I didn't think so.

Does faith do good works? Did Jesus author faith? Does Jesus finish faith?

Does God first save, then second, justify by faith?

Or, do dead in sins people, generate their own faith to believe, which causes Go to save them?

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Why do you always deny scripture. You want people saved before they even believe which is not biblical or are you going to tell me that is not what the text says?

Austin you can argue with the bible all you want,but when your wrong you should just admit that you were wrong.
 
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