If Calvinism is true, then Christ died for God's sins

[AustinC]

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Why do you always deny scripture. You want people saved before they even believe which is not biblical or are you going to tell me that is not what the text says?

Austin you can argue with the bible all you want,but when your wrong you should just admit that you were wrong.

You keep imagining that your interpretation is equal to scripture. I don't deny scripture. I deny your interpretation. Let's look at scripture and see the whole. Let's look at what we have...in Christ.
Ephesians 1:3-14
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 2:4-5
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Now, let's focus on scripture you tell me that I deny.

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him

Notice the sentence structure here.
1) You heard the word of truth.
2) The gospel of your salvation
3) and believed.
See how it fits with the verses in chapter 2.
when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved

1) Dead
2) God makes alive
3) Saved

Can a dead man hear?
But, Paul says "when you heard the Word of Truth."
But God made alive.
Can a living man hear? But, Paul says "when you heard the Word of Truth."
Therefore, we can see in scripture that:
God makes alive.
We are saved by grace alone.
We hear the Word of Truth.
The faith gifted to us causes us to believe.

It is right there in scripture. Silverhair, I didn't make it up. I quoted scripture and I guided you to see what scripture says.

Did I change anything or deny what is said?

You are free to disagree with how I understand what is being said. But, you are not being truthful when you claim that I deny scripture. Even worse, you said, I "always" deny scripture. Any reader can see through you and know you are not being truthful.

 

[Silverhair]

You keep imagining that your interpretation is equal to scripture. I don't deny scripture. I deny your interpretation. Let's look at scripture and see the whole. Let's look at what we have...in Christ.
Ephesians 1:3-14
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 2:4-5
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Now, let's focus on scripture you tell me that I deny.

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him

Notice the sentence structure here.
1) You heard the word of truth.
2) The gospel of your salvation
3) and believed.
See how it fits with the verses in chapter 2.
when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved

1) Dead
2) God makes alive
3) Saved

Can a dead man hear?
But, Paul says "when you heard the Word of Truth."
But God made alive.
Can a living man hear? But, Paul says "when you heard the Word of Truth."
Therefore, we can see in scripture that:
God makes alive.
We are saved by grace alone.
We hear the Word of Truth.
The faith gifted to us causes us to believe.

It is right there in scripture. Silverhair, I didn't make it up. I quoted scripture and I guided you to see what scripture says.

Did I change anything or deny what is said?

You are free to disagree with how I understand what is being said. But, you are not being truthful when you claim that I deny scripture. Even worse, you said, I "always" deny scripture. Any reader can see through you and know you are not being truthful.

Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

Note the order Paul describes here.
1) The saved are those who call on the name of the Lord. Rom 10:13
2) They call because they believe. Rom 10:14
3) They believe because they heard.Rom 10:14
4) They heard because a preacher shared the Gospel. Rom 10:14
Working backwards, Gospel → Hearing → Believing → Calling → Salvation.

Try working as hard to understand the bible as you do to deny what it says. You are blinded by you allegiance to calvinism.

Who denied that we are saved by grace, not me. But you deny the reason that the person is saved, it is because they believe. Not so they will believe as you have said.

"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him

Notice the sentence structure here.
1) You heard the word of truth.
2) The gospel of your salvation
3) and believed."

Why not finish the verse Austin? Here it is "you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,"

We do not need to jump to another verse for the answer do we?

4) they were sealed by the Holy Spirit, in other words they were saved.
Austin is that to hard for you see figure out, or do you just want to continue to deny scripture because it does not fit your theological view?

 

[AustinC]

Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

Note the order Paul describes here.
1) The saved are those who call on the name of the Lord. Rom 10:13
2) They call because they believe. Rom 10:14
3) They believe because they heard.Rom 10:14
4) They heard because a preacher shared the Gospel. Rom 10:14
Working backwards, Gospel → Hearing → Believing → Calling → Salvation.

Try working as hard to understand the bible as you do to deny what it says. You are blinded by you allegiance to calvinism.

Who denied that we are saved by grace, not me. But you deny the reason that the person is saved, it is because they believe. Not so they will believe as you have said.

"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him

Notice the sentence structure here.
1) You heard the word of truth.
2) The gospel of your salvation
3) and believed."

Why not finish the verse Austin? Here it is "you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,"

We do not need to jump to another verse for the answer do we?

4) they were sealed by the Holy Spirit, in other words they were saved.
Austin is that to hard for you see figure out, or do you just want to continue to deny scripture because it does not fit your theological view?

Again, you ignore the question I asked, and you screw up the order Paul provides to you.
I already showed it to you.
A person must hear, before they can believe. Dead people can't here, but people made alive can hear.

Tell me, how Lazarus came out of the grave?

Did he first believe, before he heard the "Voice of Truth?" Or did he hear the "Voice of Truth" and then believe?

Silverhair, the text in Ephesians 1 is very clear in showing your interpretation is incorrect.
You can keep pitching your false teaching and poor grasp of God's word, but it won't make it any less false than your thinking already is.
We disagree. I give God all the glory. You give man all the glory.

 

[Silverhair]

Again, you ignore the question I asked, and you screw up the order Paul provides to you.
I already showed it to you.
A person must hear, before they can believe. Dead people can't here, but people made alive can hear.

Tell me, how Lazarus came out of the grave?

Did he first believe, before he heard the "Voice of Truth?" Or did he hear the "Voice of Truth" and then believe?

Silverhair, the text in Ephesians 1 is very clear in showing your interpretation is incorrect.
You can keep pitching your false teaching and poor grasp of God's word, but it won't make it any less false than your thinking already is.
We disagree. I give God all the glory. You give man all the glory.

Austin stick with the text instead of jumping all over the bible to try an gain support for you view. Your denying the text again. The fact you do not like what the text says is not my problem it is yours.

Dead people can't sin either so what is your point. You have such a poor grasp of scripture that it astounds me.

 

[AustinC]

Austin stick with the text instead of jumping all over the bible to try an gain support for you view. Your denying the text again. The fact you do not like what the text says is not my problem it is yours.

Dead people can't sin either so what is your point. You have such a poor grasp of scripture that it astounds me.

If you understood, you would grasp that Paul identifies our death with us missing the mark for God's holiness standard due to sin.
Therefore sin caused our death.
Silverhair, I detailed Ephesians 1 for you already. Perhaps you struggle to read. I am sorry for your struggles.

You keep saying I deny the text. I have shown you that is false.

I deny your terrible interpretation of the text. You are just an awful interpreter of scripture.

 

[Reformed1689]

We know that according to Calvinism, God predestinated some to be saved and some to be lost, God passing over the lost because no one seeks after him. If no one seeks after him, why? because they have no free will. If they have free will, why can't they seek after him? If there free will is in bondage, who put them in that bondage? Did God alter their free will so that they would only sin? Then God is directly responsible for their sin; because he bound their free will, forcing them to do nothing but sin. Therefore, when Christ died on the cross, according to Calvinism, he died for the sins not only of man, but of God.

Heresy and a huge strawman argument.

 

[Silverhair]

If you understood, you would grasp that Paul identifies our death with us missing the mark for God's holiness standard due to sin.
Therefore sin caused our death.
Silverhair, I detailed Ephesians 1 for you already. Perhaps you struggle to read. I am sorry for your struggles.

You keep saying I deny the text. I have shown you that is false.

I deny your terrible interpretation of the text. You are just an awful interpreter of scripture.

I know that Paul was was using dead in sin as missing the mark. But then you, when you use Lazarus, try to make it that it is impossible for man to even think about turning to God. The bible text does not support you in this. So your attempt, actually most calvinists do this, to equate death to inability is to say the least dumb. Why you struggle so hard against the biblical text I will never understand. You are so afraid of the words "free will" that you will twist or ignore scripture. Free will is really not threat, it is only one to those that have a calvinist view point.

“If a man comes unwillingly, he does not believe; if he does not believe, he does not come. For we do not run to Christ on our feet, but by faith; not with the movement of the body, but with the freewill of the heart.” Augustine on Joh 6:44 CHURCH FATHERS: On Grace and Free Will (St. Augustine)

 

[Reformed1689]

Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

Note the order Paul describes here.
1) The saved are those who call on the name of the Lord. Rom 10:13
2) They call because they believe. Rom 10:14
3) They believe because they heard.Rom 10:14
4) They heard because a preacher shared the Gospel. Rom 10:14
Working backwards, Gospel → Hearing → Believing → Calling → Salvation.

Time out, you are reading some things into the text here and making assumptions without considering the REST of Romans. It does not say they believe BECAUSE they heard. That is not what it says at all, you read that into the text.

 

[AustinC]

I know that Paul was was using dead in sin as missing the mark. But then you, when you use Lazarus, try to make it that it is impossible for man to even think about turning to God. The bible text does not support you in this. So your attempt, actually most calvinists do this, to equate death to inability is to say the least dumb. Why you struggle so hard against the biblical text I will never understand. You are so afraid of the words "free will" that you will twist or ignore scripture. Free will is really not threat, it is only one to those that have a calvinist view point.

“If a man comes unwillingly, he does not believe; if he does not believe, he does not come. For we do not run to Christ on our feet, but by faith; not with the movement of the body, but with the freewill of the heart.” Augustine on Joh 6:44 CHURCH FATHERS: On Grace and Free Will (St. Augustine)

Why must God make a person alive with Christ, if the person, dead in their trespasses and sins, can hear and choose without God being necessary?
Why does Paul use that great conjunction, "But God"?
If it's man, then Paul would have said "But man." Paul didn't do that...however...you do that. Your interpretation is awful, which is why no one else is supporting you.

 

[Reformed1689]

Note the order Paul describes here.
1) The saved are those who call on the name of the Lord. Rom 10:13
2) They call because they believe. Rom 10:14
3) They believe because they heard.Rom 10:14
4) They heard because a preacher shared the Gospel. Rom 10:14
Working backwards, Gospel → Hearing → Believing → Calling → Salvation.

And if you want a chain of events, you need to go back a couple of chapters.
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Ro 8:30.

 

[AustinC]

And if you want a chain of events, you need to go back a couple of chapters.
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Ro 8:30.

Indeed, Paul's argument and reasoning starts in Romans 1 and goes through Romans 11. Everything builds into one brilliant argument regarding justification by faith. Picking a sentence or a phrase within a sentence and creating a doctrine from it is really shoddy. It is what cults do. It is how bad theology is invented.

 

[Reformed1689]

Indeed, Paul's argument and reasoning starts in Romans 1 and goes through Romans 11. Everything builds into one brilliant argument regarding justification by faith. Picking a sentence or a phrase within a sentence and creating a doctrine from it is really shoddy. It is what cults do. It is how bad theology is invented.

Absolutely, and then they want to lecture us about context.....

 

[Silverhair]

Time out, you are reading some things into the text here and making assumptions without considering the REST of Romans. It does not say they believe BECAUSE they heard. That is not what it says at all, you read that into the text.

"And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?" Do you have a comprehension problem or are you just so calvinized that you can not accept clear English. I have considered the rest of Romans. Have you?

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME."
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO PREACH THE GOSPEL OF PEACE, WHO BRING GLAD TIDINGS OF GOOD THINGS!"
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: "THEIR SOUND HAS GONE OUT TO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

I agree that just because they hear that does not mean that they will believe some will reject the message of salvation. That is why it is can free will. The person has to believe before God will save them.
Now you my say that God has to give the person faith so they can believe, but if that is the case then those that He does not give that faith to can not believe and thus can not be saved since belief is required before one is saved as per Rom 10:9 and Rom 10:13. I mean, logically why would anyone call on the name of the Lord if he did not believe that the Lord could rescue/save him?

Notice that it says "WHOEVER BELIEVES" and "WHOEVER CALLS" those are universal terms. Only your theology will place a restriction on them. You can deny what scripture tells us but you can not alter what scripture tells.

 

[Silverhair]

Why must God make a person alive with Christ, if the person, dead in their trespasses and sins, can hear and choose without God being necessary?
Why does Paul use that great conjunction, "But God"?
If it's man, then Paul would have said "But man." Paul didn't do that...however...you do that. Your interpretation is awful, which is why no one else is supporting you.

Read what I just posted in # 33. I do not need support of calvinists, I have the bible.

 

[Silverhair]

And if you want a chain of events, you need to go back a couple of chapters.
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Ro 8:30.

This passage does not affirm why, or how, or, “on what grounds” God foreknew that some of the human family would be saved.
Because of God’s omniscience He foreknows everyone that is going to place their faith in Jesus the Christ. The fact of God’s foreknowledge of who will choose to believe does not cause any person to believe. Everyone has the ability to believe in or reject faith in Jesus the Christ.

 

[SovereignGrace]

”Everyone has the ability to believe in or reject faith in Jesus the Christ.”

Right here is the problem our churches are plagued with. Mankind didn’t die, nor were they even severely wounded in the fall. They just got the sniffles. Man has the ability to do what is necessary to be saved. They don’t need God’s help, they can do it themselves. Talk about an haughty view of fallen mankind. “I don’t need Your help, God. I got this!” Ummmmm, no you do not.

 

[Silverhair]

Indeed, Paul's argument and reasoning starts in Romans 1 and goes through Romans 11. Everything builds into one brilliant argument regarding justification by faith. Picking a sentence or a phrase within a sentence and creating a doctrine from it is really shoddy. It is what cults do. It is how bad theology is invented.

That is why I am so surprised that you would support the theology that you do. When you miss apply text it is not helping your case. But you continue to do it even when the errors are pointed out to you. It is what cults do. It is how bad theology is invented.

 

[Silverhair]

”Everyone has the ability to believe in or reject faith in Jesus the Christ.”

Right here is the problem our churches are plagued with. Mankind didn’t die, nor were they even severely wounded in the fall. They just got the sniffles. Man has the ability to do what is necessary to be saved. They don’t need God’s help, they can do it themselves. Talk about an haughty view of fallen mankind. “I don’t need Your help, God. I got this!” Ummmmm, no you do not.

To bad you did not spend more time learning what the text actually says rather than believing what your theology teaches you that the text says.

 

[Silverhair]

Absolutely, and then they want to lecture us about context.....

Well someone has to teach you about the proper understanding of the bible. Clearly you have a serious comprehension problem.

 

[Reformed1689]

This passage does not affirm why, or how, or, “on what grounds” God foreknew that some of the human family would be saved.
Because of God’s omniscience He foreknows everyone that is going to place their faith in Jesus the Christ. The fact of God’s foreknowledge of who will choose to believe does not cause any person to believe. Everyone has the ability to believe in or reject faith in Jesus the Christ.

Except that is not the meaning of foreknew. Again you make yourself just look ignorant.

30.100 προβλέπομαιb; προγινώσκωb: to choose or select in advance of some other event—‘to choose beforehand, to select in advance.’
προβλέπομαιb: τοῦ θεοῦ περὶ ἡμῶν κρεῖττόν τι προβλεψαμένου ‘because God had chosen ahead of time an even better plan for us’ He 11:40. It is also possible to understand προβλέπομαι in He 11:40 as meaning ‘to decide in advance’ (compare the meanings in 30.84) or ‘to provide for’ (35.35).
προγινώσκωb: οὓς προέγνω, καὶ προώρισεν συμμόρφους τῆς εἰκόνος τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ ‘those whom he had chosen beforehand, he had already decided should become like his Son’ Ro 8:29. In Ro 8:29 προγινώσκω may also be understood as meaning ‘to know beforehand’ (28.6).
Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains (New York: United Bible Societies, 1996), 362.

② choose beforehand τινά someone Ro 8:29.
• τὸν λαὸν αὐτοῦ 11:2 (EWeber, D. Problem der Heilsgesch. nach Ro 9–11, 1911; THoppe, D. Idee d. Heilsgesch. b. Pls 1926; FMaier, Israel in d. Heilsgesch. nach Ro 9–11, 1929; EvDobschütz, Prädestination: StKr 106, ’35, 9–19; JMunck, Christus u. Israel: Ro 9–11, ’56; EDinkler, Prädestination bei Paulus, GDehn Festschr., ’57, 61–102; s. also on προορίζω).
• Pass. of Christ προεγνωσμένος πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου 1 Pt 1:20.
• —Know from time past (Jos., Bell. 6, 8) προγινώσκοντές με ἄνωθεν Ac 26:5.—DELG s.v. γιγνώσκω.
• M-M. TW.
William Arndt, Frederick W. Danker, et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 866.

Paul’s use of the vb. demonstrates the character of God’s activity among human beings. It assumes the aspect of a personal relationship that originates in God himself. In Rom 8:29 he states that those whom God “foreknew he also predestined [προώρισεν G4633; see ὁρίζω G3988] to be conformed to the image of his Son,” and in 11:2 he affirms that “God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.” This language recalls Amos 3:2, “You only have I known [LXX ἔγνων] of all the families of the earth” (NRSV); since God is certainly not ignorant of the Gentile nations, the point is that he has a special relationship with Israel, thus the NIV renders, “You only have I chosen.” The contexts of Rom 8:29 (where προγινώσκω is juxtaposed with προορίζω) and 11:2 (cf. ἐκλογή G1724 in 11:5, 7) confirm that προγινώσκω gives expression to the principle of election (see ἐκλέγομαι G1721).
Peter states that Christ himself was “foreknown [προεγνωσμένου] before the foundation of the world” to redeem us through his blood (1 Pet 1:20; cf. v. 19), and the predestinarian motif is recognized by most versions (KJV, “foreordained”; NRSV, “destined”; NIV, “chosen”). A comparable thought had been expressed by Peter when he said on the day of Pentecost that Christ was handed over to the Jewish people “by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge [τῇ ὡρισμένῃ βουλῇ καὶ προγνώσει τοῦ θεοῦ]” (Acts 2:23).
Moisés Silva, ed., New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology and Exegesis (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2014), 139.