If Calvinism is true...

God "predestined" us to "disobey" then "Blames/condemns" us.

Calvinist "Condensed".

 

Apparently God doesn't think it is ridiculous.

1) God issues a command - Pharaoh, let my people go.

Exodus 5:1 Afterward Moses and Aaron went in and told Pharaoh, "Thus says the LORD God of Israel: 'Let My people go, that they may hold a feast to Me in the wilderness.'"

2) God has predetermined that you (of your own free will) will disobey that command

Exodus 4:21 And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

3) God calls that disobedience

Exodus 9:17 As yet you exalt yourself against My people in that you will not let them go.

Notice the progression. God had already said in chapter 4 that He was going to harden Pharaoh's heart so that he would not obey. Then the command is issued in chapter 5. In chapter 9, God says Pharaoh is responsible for disobeying.

Don't blame the messenger if you don't like the message.

 

Me4,

Please don't take my quotes out of contexts. That quote you posted was not in regards to free-will vs God's sovereignty. It was in regards to whether God leads/guides all men or whether God only leads/guides believers. AND, it was phrased that way because it was a direct response to one of your comments. You can tell by all the "quotation marks." I don't use them that way, you do.

 

Me4,

Please don't take my quotes out of context. That quote you posted was not in regards to free-will vs God's sovereignty. It was in regards to whether God leads/guides all men or whether God only leads/guides believers. AND, it was phrased that way because it was a direct response to one of your comments. You can tell by all the "quotation marks." I don't use them that way, you do.

 

Hi Helen,

Would you mind discussing the passage below with your husband? I have a specific question that I would love to hear your answer for.

Acts 4:26-28 - "'The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed'-- for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."

The passage clearly states that Herod and Pilate and the Jews and the Romans were doing what God had predestined. The way I see it there are three possible conclusions we can draw from this passage.

1. Your thesis above is incorrect.

2. The early Christians who prayed this were incorrect.

3. The participation of those involved in the death of Christ was not disobedience.

So, my question is, which conclusion is correct?

 

If we do everything that God fore-ordains us to do, how can there be disobedience? Yet the scripture plainly speaks of the children of disobedience.

 

This might surprise some of you: The Catholic Encyclopedia on the Doctrine of Providence

 

So those who participated in the death of Christ were not sinning in killing Him?

 

I guess you aren't going to answer my question (again), are you?

The Bible affirms that some actions that God predestined for men to do were sinful. I've given one such example, from Acts, and asked you to comment on it. The Bible does not explain how this works, to my knowledge, but it very clearly affirms that it does work. That's why I believe it.

By the way, many non-Calvinists affirm the same truth. See the link I posted to the Catholic Encyclopedia for the evidence.

No, not exactly. There is no way to liken God's rule of the universe throughout all time with our trying to raise a child.

You think you understand what we believe, but you don't. But please, keep trying.

 

Why have preachers if some people can't repent of their sins, what purpose would they be? . I live in the Coal mountains and if the roof starts to fall I tell you of a truth the Calvinist are way ahead of everyone else running to get out of there.

"20": For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

"21": Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

It was not God's will that man sin but to give him Glory and Honor but he gave us a choice, that is why he said "choose you this day whom ye shall serve" .


14": Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

"15": And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

"16": He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

He also shed his blood for all for the scripture says that:

8": Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

"9": But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Even though Christ died for us all, we must believe and repent to receive that reward.

John 3: 16 do I need to post the quote?

I think God predestinated His Plan of Salvation.

 

Helen, they can only answer the question with a question meant to sidetrack you from the original. Stand your ground.

 

Helen said:

If all actions are predestined by God, then how can one disobey God?

Blah, blah, blah.

Well, Helen, you had a chance to prove you had a point. But it's easier to mindlessly repeat the same macros ad infinitum than to deal with the problems with your arguments, isn't it?

I would rather agree with what God says: his exhaustive sovereignty over everything in the universe is true. So is man's personal moral responsibility. Both are clearly taught in Scritpure, and both are to be believed by anyone claiming to be Christian.

 

Calvibaptist, you could post a Scripture saying "Hey! I, God, cause all these things to happen." In fact, many such Scripture passages have been posted to this thread and others.

But Scripture is wasted on Helen and those like her, who would prefer to trust in their own minds than God's truth. They see what they want to see, and nothing more. Pitiful.

 

Hi sfiC,

I answered Helen's question with Scripture. So far she continues to avoid that Scripture. Would you care to share your take on Acts 4:26-28? God clearly predestined what Herod and Pilate and the Romans and the Jews did to Christ. Was it therefore not sin on their part?

The Bible tells us that certain acts of men were predestined by God and were also sinful. Whether I can explain that to Helen's satisfaction (or yours) has nothing to do with whether it is true. When you stand your ground you ought to make sure that your ground is not opposite Scripture.

 

Helen's argument, and mine too, is that if God controls all that we do, that it is foreordained by God that we do this and don't do that, then there is no way any can be called 'children of disobedience.' So far, no one has been able to address that point. Why not?

I have seen and read that passage of Acts. There is something that people are missing if it indeed does mean man has no control, that all is fore-ordained. Again, if none can disobey as you say the Passage in Acts 4 shows, where do we get the 'children of disobedience?'

 

But they ARE disobeying. That's the point. They are disobeying by doing what God predestined they would do. There's the proof.

 

If He predestined them to do what they did, they did not disobey Him.

 

Our response has been over and over that the Bible clearly states that God determines everything that is going to happen (Ephesians 1:11). The Bible also clearly states that we are responsible for the choices we make (all the verses you like to quote). Therefore, both must be true. No matter what logical conundrums you come up with, both are true. No matter what questions it brings up, both are true. God controls everything. Man makes choices.

Helen, do you want us to answer your question by saying, "I don't know?" That is the answer because the Bible says that God predestines everything that will come to pass and I am guilty when I disobey Him. Paul's answer to that type of question would be found in Romans 9:19-21.

Romans 9:19-21 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

 

Well, there you have it.

The problem is, In Acts 2 Peter says they were disobedient. He says it again in Acts 3. Stephen says it in Acts 7.

Actions can be predestined by God and sinful on the part of those who commit the acts. Scripture is clear.