If Calvinism is true...

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Helen:
That's a false question, john. Jesus said the little children (and I am bold enough to presume that includes babies) are His. I'll take Him at His Word. If you want to think it is against their will, I'll leave you to that bit of nonsense, too.

Would you please quote the passage and exegete that for us? I don't believe that Jesus was saying that all children are automatically saved.

 

[Helen]

In Romans 7:7-11, Paul states that he died when he became aware of the law and sinned deliberately. That means he was alive before that. Spiritually alive! So he was born spiritually alive, or in fellowship with God, and then died spiritually when he consciously rebelled against the law and then was saved from that body of death by being born again. That is what being born again means.

We are born sinners, but our sins are covered by Christ's sacrifice and since there is no rebellion yet we are not out of fellowship with God at birth. We are spiritually alive. Read Romans 7. Paul explains it so clearly.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Here is what the Bible teaches about the future of babies - NOTHING. We don't know.

The passage about David said he was comforted because he would go to be with his child when he died. He said his child was in sheol. That is not heaven, it is the grave. David was just saying that he would be in the place of the dead like his son one day.

Wow! your really believe that David was comforted by the thought that one day he would go to sheol?

I have yet to see someone who is overjoyed at the fact that they will one day die, unless that one was out of his mind.

 

[Timtoolman]

Calvi

"Does this mean that all babies that die go to hell? Not necessarily. The Bible doesn't say, so for me to give comfort to a grieving mother because her child is in heaven when the Bible doesn't say would be a lie."

Yet according to you the call is not to all but you have no problem preaching and giving the call to all. Little inconsistant there. You say that all can't come but you offer all the chance to come. Why not be honest here and tell people "if you are one of the elect then congrads, but don't come unless you can't help it."

 

[Ransom]

Calvibaptist asked Helen:

Would you please quote the passage and exegete that for us?

 

[Frenchy]

Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8). This doctrine does not rule out, however, man's responsibility to believe in the redeeming work of God the Son (John 3:16-18). Scripture presents a tension between God's sovereignty in salvation, and man's responsibility to believe which it does not try to resolve. Both are true -- to deny man's responsibility is to affirm an unbiblical hyper-Calvinism; to deny God's sovereignty is to affirm an unbiblical Arminianism.

This i believe to be true
It is called a mystery, a Paradox one which MAN will never figure out or understand, no matter how hard they try. so why bother?

 

[Karen]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Here is what the Bible teaches about the future of babies - NOTHING. We don't know.

The passage about David said he was comforted because he would go to be with his child when he died. He said his child was in sheol. That is not heaven, it is the grave. David was just saying that he would be in the place of the dead like his son one day.

All infants are born with a sin nature. The evidence? Some die. Death is a result of being born in sin. This is what Romans 5 says.

Does this mean that all babies that die go to hell? Not necessarily. The Bible doesn't say, so for me to give comfort to a grieving mother because her child is in heaven when the Bible doesn't say would be a lie.

Where do you free-willers get off talking about all infants going to heaven?......

Respectfully, if it takes a free-willer to believe that, then Spurgeon and Al Mohler are "free-willers". Yet they defend the concept that all babies go to Heaven from Calvinistic interpretations of the Bible, admittedly not summed up in the Bible in a couple of verses.

Karen

 

[Karen]

Originally posted by johnp.:

..........I don't believe babies go to Hell either but you have no right to teach it as a truth because God saw fit not to reveal it to us. It is just our opinion...........

Hi johnp,
Could you clarify then? Because I have read your above statement several times. It seems pretty clear to me. Yet you are saying that I'm not reading it right.

Karen

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Karen:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Calvibaptist:

Where do you free-willers get off talking about all infants going to heaven?......

Respectfully, if it takes a free-willer to believe that, then Spurgeon and Al Mohler are "free-willers". Yet they defend the concept that all babies go to Heaven from Calvinistic interpretations of the Bible, admittedly not summed up in the Bible in a couple of verses.

Karen </font>[/QUOTE]I'm sorry, Karen. I was being sarcastic with this statement showing that the idea that all babies go to heaven is incongruous with the free-will belief that we all have to have the opportunity to use our wills to choose God. Babies can't do that. So for them to say they automatically go to heaven shows they don't believe their own statements.

I am quite aware of those Calvinists you mention that believe that all babies go to heaven. I tend to agree with them, but that is just because I am sentimental. I say that I trust in the righteousness and grace of God. I could say that I believe all babies that die are elect, but I don't have a Scripture to prove it, so I don't.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Here is what the Bible teaches about the future of babies - NOTHING. We don't know.

The passage about David said he was comforted because he would go to be with his child when he died. He said his child was in sheol. That is not heaven, it is the grave. David was just saying that he would be in the place of the dead like his son one day.

Wow! your really believe that David was comforted by the thought that one day he would go to sheol?

I have yet to see someone who is overjoyed at the fact that they will one day die, unless that one was out of his mind. </font>[/QUOTE]I take that back. The passage says nothing about David being comforted.

2 Samuel 12:20-23 So David arose from the ground, washed and anointed himself, and changed his clothes; and he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house; and when he requested, they set food before him, and he ate. 21 Then his servants said to him, "What is this that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive, but when the child died, you arose and ate food." 22 And he said, "While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who can tell whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?' 23 "But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

It says everything about the fact that David knew that the life and death of his child was in God's hands and there was nothing he could do about it. It does not say anything about where the child was or where David was one day going.

 

[Calvibaptist]

So, why build a whole theology on the story of David that says nothing about where the baby went?

That is my point.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Calvi

"Does this mean that all babies that die go to hell? Not necessarily. The Bible doesn't say, so for me to give comfort to a grieving mother because her child is in heaven when the Bible doesn't say would be a lie."

Yet according to you the call is not to all but you have no problem preaching and giving the call to all. Little inconsistant there. You say that all can't come but you offer all the chance to come. Why not be honest here and tell people "if you are one of the elect then congrads, but don't come unless you can't help it."

There are at least two calls talked about in the Bible (although some would argue with me about this). There is the generic call of the gospel that I give. I preach, and while I preach, there are both elect and non-elect listening. I don't know who they are, so everyone hears the words.

Matthew 22:2-3 The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 "and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come.

Notice who does the calling here. It is not the master himself, it is the servants. This is the general vocal call that can be rejected.

As I preach, the Holy Spirit, through the Word, calls the elect to himself. This call is always effective because only the elect hear it.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Notice that the ones that are predestined are the ones who then get called. Those whom God callse He then justifies. There is no possibility in this verse of someone being called and not justified. This is why we say that it is effective.

We are just trying to deal legitimately with all the biblical texts. You can say what you want about what it does to commandments, offers, choices, etc. I only care what the Bible says.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Karin.

Clarity on an Arminian/Calvinist thread HaHa! . You said I said Anyway, johnp says babies don't go to hell... When in fact I said I believe all children are saved, an indefinite statement without scriptural backing. If I had said babies don't go to hell I would be claiming to know a thing that has not been revealed, I'm not an Arminian you know. My 'I believe' might have read 'I think'.

I believe all children are saved because the scriptures incline that way. This comes as a surprise to me as one passage I know of deals with the number of the saved, Rev 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count..., and that number can only come from the babes that didn't last. Now the Arminians are claiming that most of the saved are saved not by their faith but by grace. Apart from those who believe they are little angels that is.

john.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
There are at least two calls talked about in the Bible (although some would argue with me about this). There is the generic call of the gospel that I give. I preach, and while I preach, there are both elect and non-elect listening. I don't know who they are, so everyone hears the words.

There's a hearing with the ears, and with the heart, and when God calls it to the heart, never to the ears, God is no respecter of persons with his calling/salvation, unless he wants to "DISHONOR" Jesus's death for "ALL SINS".

Matthew 22:2-3 The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 "and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come.

Notice who does the calling here. It is not the master himself, it is the servants. This is the general vocal call that can be rejected.

And notice "WHY" they didn't come, not willing the call was an invitation to all, just as it is today, but Calvin says it is not to "ALL".

As I preach, the Holy Spirit, through the Word, calls the elect to himself. This call is always effective because only the elect hear it.

Many are called, few are chosen, evidently the call isn't as "effective" as you claim, or God lied about the call.

"What".. makes the difference between the "called" and "chosen"???

Personal faith??????

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Explain how an "effective call" to many result in only a few being "predestined, called, Justified, glorified"???

Notice that the ones that are predestined are the ones who then get called. Those whom God callse He then justifies. There is no possibility in this verse of someone being called and not justified. This is why we say that it is effective.

But the possibility of being called and not chosen exist, how does that work under "predestination"???

We are just trying to deal legitimately with all the biblical texts. You can say what you want about what it does to commandments, offers, choices, etc. I only care what the Bible says.

And we're just trying to make you see that what you're teaching is not scripture, there's too many "contradiction" of scripture if interpreted according to calvin.

 

[npetreley]

For the record, I have no idea if all babies are saved. There are some scriptures that hint that all babies and the unborn are saved, but there are no scriptures that explicitly state that. So I hope that it's true all babies are saved, but I can't back it with solid scriptural evidence.

Don't tell anyone, though. We people who believe in election are supposed to be cruel and deprive people of any hope, so please pretend that I believe all babies go to hell, okay?

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
There's a hearing with the ears, and with the heart, and when God calls it to the heart, never to the ears, God is no respecter of persons with his calling/salvation, unless he wants to "DISHONOR" Jesus's death for "ALL SINS".

It would be a dishonor to Jesus' death if that death was not efficient. You say He died only to make men saveable. The Bible says He died to save.

And notice "WHY" they didn't come, not willing the call was an invitation to all, just as it is today, but Calvin says it is not to "ALL".

Did you totally miss my point or are you deliberately saying these things to confuse the issue.

I already said this call was to all because it was the general call of the gospel that is proclaimed to all. Those who reject is do it of their own free will. That is Calvinism 101.

Many are called, few are chosen, evidently the call isn't as "effective" as you claim, or God lied about the call.

Again, this is the general call of the gospel. It is the voice of the preacher calling people to repent. We never say that everyone responds to this call. You didn't really read my post, or the Scripture passages.

Explain how an "effective call" to many result in only a few being "predestined, called, Justified, glorified"???

My point was that this is a different call. This is the call of God, not of the preacher. God uses the preacher to call the elect. As the preacher calls, those who God is not calling do not respond. Those who He is calling respond. Follow the reasoning before you think you have a slam-dunk response!

But the possibility of being called and not chosen exist, how does that work under predestination"???

It doesn't. Not according to Romans 8:29-30. You just misunderstood my post.

And we're just trying to make you see that what you're teaching is not scripture, there's too many "contradiction" of scripture if interpreted according to calvin.

How can I quote Scripture and you tell me that what I am teaching is not Scripture. Deal with Romans 8:29-30. Deal with the fact that all those who are predestined are called. All those who are called are justified. All those who are justified are glorified. That is Scripture.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by npetreley:
For the record, I have no idea if all babies are saved. There are some scriptures that hint that all babies and the unborn are saved, but there are no scriptures that explicitly state that. So I hope that it's true all babies are saved, but I can't back it with solid scriptural evidence.

Don't tell anyone, though. We people who believe in election are supposed to be cruel and deprive people of any hope, so please pretend that I believe all babies go to hell, okay?

Have you ever heard of "INNOCENT BLOOD", that's babies.

De 27:25 Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person.

Ps 106:38 And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan:

Abortion is also a "Sacrifice" to Satan.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by npetreley:
For the record, I have no idea if all babies are saved. There are some scriptures that hint that all babies and the unborn are saved, but there are no scriptures that explicitly state that. So I hope that it's true all babies are saved, but I can't back it with solid scriptural evidence.

Don't tell anyone, though. We people who believe in election are supposed to be cruel and deprive people of any hope, so please pretend that I believe all babies go to hell, okay?

Have you ever heard of "INNOCENT BLOOD", that's babies.

De 27:25 Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person.

Ps 106:38 And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan:

Abortion is also a "Sacrifice" to Satan. </font>[/QUOTE]What do any of these verses have to do with whether babies who die go to heaven or hell?

 

[Helen]

Because if they are innocent they are not hell-bound. That is Bible 101.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Amen, Helen!