If election is unconditional why would it be more difficult for the rich to be saved?

[preacher4truth]

Note the catch phrase of the OP that you so obviously missed qaf:

How can one person be any more "difficult" than another if the Calvinistic system is right?

It's not more difficult. That right there is the faulty notion skan has garnered, but he didn't get it from a complete and efficient analysis of the text.

The premise is that it is more difficult for some (the rich) to be saved. The text doesn't say this anywhere, nor does it suggest it. Thus, his is a false premise and is not even close to the context and point of the passage.

It (this false premise) is being used to disprove a premise of Calvinism, and does not even interpret the whole point of the passage correctly, which is crystal clear: God alone saves.

If you want to believe it says (Matthew 19) it's more difficult for the rich to be saved, go for it. You will also erroneously miss the point, and misinterpret the passage as well.

It isn't more difficult for any to be saved. Why? It is God who saves, not man.

 

[Skandelon]

Note the catch phrase of the OP that you so obviously missed qaf:

"Catch phrase" or question?

It's not more difficult.

Then that is your answer to the question. Now, make a sound and reasonable argument supporting that view in light of the apparent contradiction of Jesus' words.

That right there is the faulty notion skan has garnered, but he didn't get it from a complete and efficient analysis of the text.

So, the correct response would be to supply the correct complete and efficient analysis of the text in light of your Calvinistic premise instead of just question begging.

 

[preacher4truth]

What is off track exactly? This is too vague for a response.

I've already thoroughly given you the point, no need to pretend it wasn't answered. It's right in the text.

Your premise is incorrect. It is not more difficult for the rich to be saved than anyone else. Nothing in the text says it is more difficult, now does it?

Why though? God alone saves. Actually, the passage that you assumed handily dismantles Calvinist belief, instead, bolsters it.

With man it is impossible, but with God______? Get the point yet? It's all of God.

(Note when He said "with man" He didn't only implicate the rich then maybe you'll get the point, as they asked "Who then can be saved?")

You've been answered concisely. Post #56 and this post do that.

 

[preacher4truth]

"Catch phrase" or question?

Then that is your answer to the question. Now, make a sound and reasonable argument supporting that view in light of the apparent contradiction of Jesus' words.

So, the correct response would be to supply the correct complete and efficient analysis of the text in light of your Calvinistic premise instead of just question begging.

Cathc phrase, main point, to disprove Calvinist belief.

You failed in your effort. Your passage as do Scriptures bolster Calvinist belief.

I've already given you the efficient analysis. Actually, Jesus gave you the answer in the context to His disciples.

But this is you, you want to get a few pages away from the answer.

 

[preacher4truth]

One last time: It is not more difficult for one person, rich, poor, or otherwise to be saved than any other person.

Why? It is God that saves.

 

[Skandelon]

So, P4T, what do you believe Jesus meant when he said, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven."

and...

"it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

We all agree that man can't save themselves. We all agree that God must save us (whether by effectual means or not is not the issue in this text), so in light of all these things why does Jesus draw a distinction between the rich and poor in this manner?

 

[Robert Snow]

So, P4T, what do you believe Jesus meant when he said, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven."

and...

"it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

We all agree that man can't save themselves. We all agree that God must save us (whether by effectual means or not is not the issue in this text), so in light of all these things why does Jesus draw a distinction between the rich and poor in this manner?

Amazing! You ask P4T to explain this scripture he denies in practice, and he disappears. Maybe he is seeking advice from other Calvinists as how to evade yet another scripture.

 

[jbh28]

Amazing! You ask P4T to explain this scripture he denies in practice, and he disappears. Maybe he is seeking advice from other Calvinists as how to evade yet another scripture.

how is this helpful to the discussion? Just a personal attack. People have lives outside of the Baptist board.

 

[Iconoclast]

I've read many things by Kyredneck that cause me to shake my head. Over 40 years in the Baptist church and I have never heard anything as strange as some of his home-grown theology. Very strange!

Ah,yes Robert...I think it was you that one time posted 40 years in a baptist church and you never heard about calvinism

That is strange. Do you have a web-site for the church.Must be some real enlightning sermons taking place there!:thumbs:

 

[canadyjd]

So, P4T, what do you believe Jesus meant when he said, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven....and..."it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."....so in light of all these things why does Jesus draw a distinction between the rich and poor in this manner?

I know you addressed the question to P4T, but I'd like to answer.

Why did Jesus say what He said about how hard it is for the rich to get into heaven? I believe P4T has done a very good job in explaining the passage in context. Jesus is teaching that God alone saves.


Why would Jesus teach that to His disciples? Jesus is dispelling the notion that was common (then and now) that the "rich" are receiving God's blessings and, therefore, must be saved. That is clear%2

 

[InTheLight]

how is this helpful to the discussion? Just a personal attack. People have lives outside of the Baptist board.

Yes, people have lives outside of BB, but P4T has over 2,600 posts in 8 months. That's a lot of posts. It's possible that he's not in front of his computer but his computer is logged onto BB right now as I type (8:50 pm) and Who's Online says he's searching the forum.

 

[preacher4truth]

I know you addressed the question to P4T, but I'd like to answer.

Why did Jesus say what He said about how hard it is for the rich to get into heaven? I believe P4T has done a very good job in explaining the passage in context. Jesus is teaching that God alone saves.

Why would Jesus teach that to His disciples? Jesus is dispelling the notion that was common (then and now) that the "rich" are receiving God's blessings and, therefore, must be saved. That is clear from the disciples response. They are absolutely shocked that Jesus says it is hard for the rich to get into heaven. Their world view has been shaken.

So, to answer your question directly, Jesus tells His disciples it is hard for the rich to get into heaven to dispel the false perception that the rich are being blessed by God and are going to heaven. Jesus then points to the truth that salvation is a work of God alone.

The is no conflict with the reformed doctrine of unconditional election, in fact, it is supported by the text. God alone saves.

peace to youraying:

Thank you. In that is why I say the OP is poorly written, and is a false premise altogether.

Again, the text at hand actually supports Calvinistic thought, and dismantles his notion completely.

I am though amazed that his cheerleaders would rather fight over non-issues like "demanding" an answer from me (along another rabbit trail created by skan to avoid how I clearly show him in error), skipping the truth and main point of Jesus, rather than looking at the text and see the truth of it in itself. Such is our day.

It is not "more difficult" as it is nowhere even mentioned. I believe the disciples got the point, God alone saves, not that it is more difficult for the rich to enter.

I've, rather Gods Word has proven skan to be in error with his assumption from the text. That's my main point, and good enough for me to leave the other strawmen and rabbit trails alone.

- Peace and Grace

 

[jbh28]

Yes, people have lives outside of BB, but P4T has over 2,600 posts in 8 months. That's a lot of posts. It's possible that he's not in front of his computer but his computer is logged onto BB right now as I type (8:50 pm) and Who's Online says he's searching the forum.

wow, that's more than me and I've been here since 2008!

 

[quantumfaith]

I know you addressed the question to P4T, but I'd like to answer.

Why did Jesus say what He said about how hard it is for the rich to get into heaven? I believe P4T has done a very good job in explaining the passage in context. Jesus is teaching that God alone saves.


Why would Jesus teach that to His disciples? Jesus is dispelling the notion that was common (then and now) that the "rich" are receiving God's blessings and, therefore, must be saved. That is clear%2

canadyjd,

This is actually a credible and valid perspective on this scripture, although as I read the surrounding context I do not see any reason why this MUST be the perspective intended by Jesus. He emphasizes the difficulty in "entering the kingdom of heaven with the statement.....

"Children, how hard it is to enter the Kingdom of God!"

 

[Skandelon]

I know you addressed the question to P4T, but I'd like to answer.

Why did Jesus say what He said about how hard it is for the rich to get into heaven? I believe P4T has done a very good job in explaining the passage in context. Jesus is teaching that God alone saves.

As apposed to Lucifier who is also saving people? I'm not trying to be mean, but we all agree that God alone saves. This is not a question about whether or not Salvation is of God. That is a given.

The question is regarding Jesus expressing the difficulty (not the impossibility) for wealthy people to enter his kingdom. We all agree that with God it is certainly possible, but within the Calvinistic system why might ones financial status affect a person entering the kingdom?

Why would Jesus teach that to His disciples? Jesus is dispelling the notion that was common (then and now) that the "rich" are receiving God's blessings and, therefore, must be saved. That is clear%2

I agree that there was and still is a misconception about the correlation of man's wealth and God's blessings, but what does that have to do with it being hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom if indeed the doctrines of unconditional election and effectual calling are true?

The man who walks away came wanting to follow Christ but was unwilling to give up his money to follow Christ. Nothing is mentioned about the issue of God blessing the rich and the need to correct that misconception, but what is said is quite clear and I'm asking what is meant by it?

 

[Skandelon]

It is not "more difficult" as it is nowhere even mentioned.

P4T, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[webdog]

wow, that's more than me and I've been here since 2008!

...and that's after a January to summer hiatus!

 

[glfredrick]

Ah yes, the old "it's a mystery" argument. Very nice!

Are you making the claim that we can know EVERYTHING about God?

 

[InTheLight]

canadyjd,

This is actually a credible and valid perspective on this scripture, although as I read the surrounding context I do not see any reason why this MUST be the perspective intended by Jesus.

You beat me to it. canadyjd gives a good explanation. But along with context as you mentioned there is also other instances where upper class people were corrected. In other words, the disciples would have already heard that the rich are not necessarily blessed by God and had some sort of an advantage in getting into Heaven. In fact, the Sadducees were wealthy Jews and they didn't even believe in the resurrection. So it would be very hard indeed for them to enter in!

 

[InTheLight]

Are you making the claim that we can know EVERYTHING about God?

<sigh> Another time-tested technique of deflecting the subject matter at hand down another alley.

I will contend that there are many things that Calvinists claim is a mystery, or is unknowable, is in fact explainable. Don't bother asking me to elaborate because I'm not playing this game.