If God created a 12 billion year old universe 6000 years ago

[chadman]

Yes, it's bothersome to me to think that God intentionally deceives us by creating a universe with the appearance of age. Not just a few centuries, but millions of years. God cannot lie.

Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,



And let's not forget Psalms 19, which states that observing God's creation reveals knowledge.

1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork.
2 Day unto day utters speech,
And night unto night reveals knowledge.

So,

1. God cannot lie.
2. Observing His creation tells us the earth is much older than 6,000 years old.

YECers have never had an adequate explanation for the speed of light problem. If we observe a star going super nova, according to YECers, that means that God created the light of an exploding star within 6,000 light years away from earth. So if God faked the light of an explosion that never happened, and since Psalm 19 says that observing the heavens reveals knowledge about God, doesn't that mean that we can't know anything? What other observed phenomena has God faked?

Quit observing God's creations and natural laws. Drink more Kool-aid.

 

[billwald]

If a text "said" stuff then there would be no need for teachers and preachers. We could all read the text for ourselves. There would be no need for baptistboard. Why are you all all trying to convince me of what the text "says" when there is no agreement between you all.

 

[InTheLight]

Much of what evolutionist claim as "age" is nothing but the consequences of the flood. When you find a tree upright through several geological layers and each layer is aged by evolutionists as millions of years different than the other layers - you know something is wrong especially when the tree rings only allow for hundreds or a few thousand years. Geological evolution is a make believe game based upon circular reasoning.

How do you explain the amount and thickness of coal deposits? If the flood created all the world's coal you would have coal veins only a few feet thick.

 

[chadman]

So if I get really literal here....
Gen 1:29 -

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

To man - every seed-bearing plant on the face of the Earth for food? What about poisinous plants? What about canibus? This is more poetic than literal.

To the beasts - I give every green plant for food. Was God saying that there were to be no carnivoures? Lions? Komoto Dragons? Fish?! Sharks?! Plankton eating whales?

 

[Dr. Walter]

How do you explain the amount and thickness of coal deposits? If the flood created all the world's coal you would have coal veins only a few feet thick.

What is your evidence for that assertion?

 

[chadman]

How do you explain the amount and thickness of coal deposits? If the flood created all the world's coal you would have coal veins only a few feet thick.

You ask a good question - and now I thought of another I guess.

Up to the point of the flood, there were mountains - did those mountains have layers of sediment and if so, how deep were they? Ah nevermind, just remembered, the 'appearance of age' thing. You can only look at layers that are up to 6000 yrs old. The rest are deceiving because they although under the same geologic and biological rules, they were artifically created to appear old - so the rules no longer apply past 6000 yrs.

Nevermind.

 

[shodan]

Sorry, somehow I double posted.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You ask a good question - and now I thought of another I guess.

Up to the point of the flood, there were mountains - did those mountains have layers of sediment and if so, how deep were they? Ah nevermind, just remembered, the 'appearance of age' thing. You can only look at layers that are up to 6000 yrs old. The rest are deceiving because they although under the same geologic and biological rules, they were artifically created to appear old - so the rules no longer apply past 6000 yrs.

Nevermind.

http://www.icr.org/article/did-modern-coal-seams-form-peat-swamp/

http://www.icr.org/research/index/researchp_jb_patternsofcirculation/

 

[shodan]

Your reading into the text an assumption. You are assuming that verse 1 describes a different creation than found in the six days of creation. You are assuming what is found in verse 1 is created in contrast to what is found in verses 3-31 which is "made." You are placing a "gap" of time between verse 1 and six days. That is a "gap" and it is part of the "gap" theory.

My position assumes verse 1 is the creation of the substance and verses 2-31 is the formation and filling of the substance all within six days.

Your posit of a "gap" between what is found in verse 1 and what is found in verses 3-31 based merely on the distinction between "created" and "made" contradicts other clear scripture as no New Testament writer posits such a "gap" or refers to any previous creation. Such a position requires destruction of life and thus contradictory to Romans 5:12 and many other scriptures that trace sin and decay to one man Adam and the garden of Eden.

I said nothing about life, that is another question [as for the use of 'gap' that only ads confusion because I am NOT referring to the 'gap theory']

All I posted related only to the the fact that we have nothing in Scripture on which to base the age of the planet earth [which, obviously, was lifeless for some period of time whatever your position is].

I am 'assuming' as the text says in verse one that God created the universe. How do you get a 'different creation?...that is gap theory, and as I plainly stated, I, like you, reject that theory. Your continued attack on the gap theory is your strawman. I have no dog in that fight.

I am 'assuming' as verse two says that the earth was lifeless at this point.

And what the time lapse was before God began the forming and filling on day one, no man can say based on this text.

YOU are assuming that verse one is not an ablsolute statement about God's creation of the universe. The empty, dark earth precedes day one in a literal understanding of the text. The three conditions of an EXISTING earth that are described in verse two are then remedied by God beginnning with light for the dark earth.

The earth of verse 2 exists prior to the six days of setting it in order.

[Look at the clear structure of the text. The beginnning of each day is clearly marked with the exact same phrase, "And God said....," the first of which begins in verse 3, FOLLOWING the existing, dark, empty earth of verse 2]

 

[InTheLight]

What is your evidence for that assertion?

Coal is formed when plant matter settles at the bottom of a body of water then is deeply buried by sediments. Pressure and heat work to compact the dead plants and eventually over time it turns into coal.

If all coal was the result of the flood there would be only about, what, potentially 1,500 years worth of plant life to decay under the world wide flood? It takes several feet thickness of dead vegetation to produce an inch thickness of coal so how can there be coal layers that are 30, 40, 50 feet thick?

Then we are to believe this vegetation would form coal in only another 4,500 years or so?

 

[chadman]

http://www.icr.org/article/did-modern-coal-seams-form-peat-swamp/

http://www.icr.org/research/index/researchp_jb_patternsofcirculation/

Those links don't respond to my question about pre-flood geologic formations, but who's checking? Want to summarize? I could have missed the point.

 

[matt wade]

God made coal.

Question answered.

 

[InTheLight]

Can you provide an example of any tree with rings that was not buried by the flood with more than 2000 years of rings or any living tree with more than 4000 years of rings?

The Rocky Mountain bristlecone pine trees.

The bristlecone pines are the oldest single living organisms known (though some plants form clonal colonies which may be many times older). The oldest bristlecone pines are single plants that have been alive for a little less than 5,000 years. These very old trees are of great importance in dendrochronology or tree-ring dating.

The oldest (non-clonal, acknowledged) living organism known is a bristlecone pine tree nicknamed "Methuselah" (after Methuselah, the longest-lived person in the Bible). Methuselah is located in the Ancient Bristlecone Pine Forest in the White Mountains of eastern California, however its precise location is undisclosed by the U.S. Forest Service to protect the tree from vandalism.[1] The age of Methuselah was measured by core samples in 1957 to be 4,789 years old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristlecone_pine

 

[chadman]

In the Snake Range of eastern Nevada Donald R. Currey, a student of the University of North Carolina, was taking core samples of bristlecones in 1964. He discovered that "Prometheus" in a cirque below Wheeler Peak was over 4,000 years old. His coring tool broke, so the U.S. Forest service granted permission to cut down "Prometheus". 4,844 rings were counted on a cross-section of the tree, making "Prometheus" at least 4,844 years old, the oldest non-clonal living thing known to man.[2]

Argg! How could this guy cut down that tree?!!! How could the US let him do it? I know we had to 'know' but that hurts, as I have really idolized Sequoias and Bristlecones since I was a kid. I hope the point is proven and they don't cut anymore down ever again.

 

[matt wade]

Argg! How could this guy cut down that tree?!!! How could the US let him do it? I know we had to 'know' but that hurts, as I have really idolized Sequoias and Bristlecones since I was a kid. I hope the point is proven and they don't cut anymore down ever again.

Your use of the word "idolized" sums up exactly how I feel about your views. You have many idols rather than worshiping God.

 

[chadman]

Your use of the word "idolized" sums up exactly how I feel about your views. You have many idols rather than worshiping God.

Oh seriously - I mean in the vernacular of the day for crying out loud. Do you really think I worship trees? You are wound just a little too tight friend.

Matt - I worship (latria) God alone, not objects. That's to clarify explicitly to YOU.

 

[matt wade]

Oh seriously - I mean in the vernacular of the day for crying out loud. Do you really think I worship trees? You are wound just a little too tight friend.

Matt - I worship (latria) God alone, not objects. That's to clarify explicitly to YOU.

I understand that you meant in the "vernacular of the day", but your words on this subject sure seem to indicate otherwise. You certainly come up with every excuse that you can for why God didn't do things.

 

[chadman]

I understand that you meant in the "vernacular of the day", but your words on this subject sure seem to indicate otherwise. You certainly come up with every excuse that you can for why God didn't do things.

Matt - you attack because you cannot put together sound reasoning. You would have made a great Roman Catholic in the Middle Ages defending making slaves out of the incapable natives. You guys all sound alike in retrospect. Same song, different century. Make your point specifically if you have one, not just your emotional dissapointment. Yeah yeah,we are all sad everyone here doesn't agree with us I know.

 

[chadman]

You certainly come up with every excuse that you can for why God didn't do things.

In all truth, I believe God is more creative than you will ever have cognition of. He has no boundries, cannot be tied to your limited theology. God is beyond anything you will ever think of in your entire life--EVER EVER. You put God in a box only in your mind, He is not in any box, and is more incredible and great than you will ever concieve of. God is the great I AM. God can do anything.

 

[WestminsterMan]

In all truth, I believe God is more creative than you will ever have cognition of. He has no boundries, cannot be tied to your limited theology. God is beyond anything you will ever think of in your entire life--EVER EVER. You put God in a box only in your mind, He is not in any box, and is more incredible and great than you will ever concieve of. God is the great I AM. God can do anything.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: