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If God is Not Sovereign, Then There is No Grace
- Thread starter KenH
- Start date
Christ said that if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
We don't share the same meaning of "draw."
The Gospel draws all men but only those who believe will be chosen to be conformed in the image of Christ.
KenH
Well-Known Member
The word "men" is supplied, it is not in the manuscript.
Therefore, it is actually "draw all unto me". Which means that one has to determine who the "all" are. And by taking the Bible as a whole, we know that the "all" is all of God's elect.
Otherwise, one would be saying that God is a failure if He is trying to do something(in this case, draw every person who ever lived) and unable to do it.
That's what those old dead men have told you.
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of Lord shall be saved."
It's the drawing of the hearing of the Gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit that draws ALL men.
But only those who believe will be chosen for redemption.
That goes back to Rom. 8, Eph. 1, 2 Thess. 2, it's not who is chosen for salvation but who believed and was chosen for His plan of Redemption to be conformed.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Look that verse up in the KJV, the word "men" is in italics. Also, you can see it in the Blue Letter Bible website; there is no Greek word in the manuscript for "men" in that verse.
KenH
Well-Known Member
You think that salvation that is conditioned - at some point, in some way, to some degree - on fallen man.
The Bible teaches that salvation is conditioned on Christ Jesus and Him alone.
You can ignore and you have to ignore the "whosoever will's" found throughout Scripture to believe your theory.
KenH
Well-Known Member
No, I don't.
Wrong again! Our FAITH in Jesus Christ alone is the condition to salvation.
KenH
Well-Known Member
I will stick to what the Bible teaches - salvation based on the Son of God's performance as my Surety and Redeemer - not to a false gospel based on fallen man's performance.
That statement will get you saved and the reason I know the Calvinists are saved.
But just as Adam chose to disobey God through free will, I also have the same free will to choose my destiny, with or without God.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Romans 9:20 O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Irresistible Grace is a theory formed by man.
You need to read the context of Rom. 9 to understand what it actually means.
I have already explained that somewhere recently.
It seems I do a lot of repeating myself, over and over and over....
KenH
Well-Known Member
Psalm 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power.
You can pick any verse in Scripture and apply a focus of your choosing, regardless of it's intended meaning.
Ascetic X
Active Member
Gods draws all humans, but when a person rejects God, it is the human who fails, not God. His drawing is achieved, but God never forces someone to trust in Christ.
When a hyper-Calvinist engages in evangelism, shares their faith with an unsaved person, what is their hope? How do they mentally frame it?
“God, please open their heart to receive thy Word and get born again.”
OR
“God, I hope this individual is one of the elect, otherwise I’m wasting my time and casting my pearls before swine.”
To me, it seems more biblical to see every person as eligible to enter the kingdom by grace through faith in Christ. That seems to be the basis of much greater zeal to win souls for heaven. Thinking that Jesus died only for the elect seems to be nihilistic. “I can be shy and sluggish about sharing my testimony. If Joe is in the elect, he will be saved in spite of my cowardice or laziness in witnessing.” This apathy would decrease evangelical fervor and missionary effort.
- Hyper-Calvinists believed God had already sovereignly chosen who would be saved, so preaching the Gospel wasn't necessary to bring people to faith, only to locate the already-chosen.
- "God Will Do It" Mentality: They argued God would save the elect in His own time, without human help, famously telling William Carey, "When God wants to convert the heathen, He will do it without your help or mine".
- Historical Examples: This led to anti-missionary movements, like the one led by Baptist Daniel Parker around 1820, who rejected missions and missions societies.
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KenH
Well-Known Member
I can't speak for anyone else; however, when I do the Scripture reading and lead the opening prayer at the worship service, one of the things I generally pray for is that God will give the hearers open hearts for understanding spiritual things.
Again, I can't speak for anyone else; however, I share the gospel of Christ broadly and indiscriminately.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Ken if you take the bible as a whole you see that "ALL" actually means all not just your calvinist elect.
God desires all to come to Him not just some as you seem to think.
Christ was the propitiation for the whole world not just your so called elect.
He was the ransom for all not just the few of calvinism.
Ken you have to read your theory into the text so that it fits your view.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Ken you just proved @Charlie24's case for him.
The word "men" is not in the text but neither is "elect" but the word "ALL" is.
Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.” BSB
How is it possible they can't understand this?
Not actually asking the question, I'm pretty sure we know.