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If God is Not Sovereign, Then There is No Grace

KenH

KenH

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Ken you just proved @Charlie24's case for him.
Click to expand...

Not at all.

The Bible itself proves that the word "all" does not always mean everyone who ever lived, nor does it always mean everyone living at a particular moment in time.

Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Ceasar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

The "all" means only those within the purview of Caesar Augustus' decree, not everyone living on the earth at that point in time. The word "all" applied to a particular group of people, not every person on the earth.
 
C

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
KenH said:
Not at all.

The Bible itself proves that the word "all" does not always mean everyone who ever lived, nor does it always mean everyone living at a particular moment in time.

Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Ceasar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

The "all" means only those within the purview of Caesar Augustus' decree, not everyone living on the earth at that point in time. The word "all" applied to a particular group of people, not every person on the earth.
Click to expand...

The "all" in the English language is "Always" determined by the context in which it is used.

The context of your verse reveals that, it's common sense.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
KenH said:
Not at all.

The Bible itself proves that the word "all" does not always mean everyone who ever lived, nor does it always mean everyone living at a particular moment in time.

Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Ceasar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

The "all" means only those within the purview of Caesar Augustus' decree, not everyone living on the earth at that point in time. The word "all" applied to a particular group of people, not every person on the earth.
Click to expand...

So now your saying that it does not apply to anyone from 100 Ad and onward. You just keep digging a deeper hole for yourself Ken.
 
KenH

KenH

Well-Known Member
Charlie24 said:
What I have proven is in " I will draw "all" men unto me" the context reveals "all men everywhere" there is no context of limitation.
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The verse says "all" in the Greek, not "all men". Based on the Bible as a whole, the "all" in that verse is God's elect, whom He chose before the world began.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
KenH said:
The verse says "all" in the Greek, not "all men". Based on the Bible as a whole, the "all" in that verse is God's elect, whom He chose before the world began.
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Ken you must be referring to Eph 1:4 in your post and you have not even used that one correctly.

Why do you keep reading "elect" into all those verses Ken? Do you really think the Holy Spirit got it wrong?
 
C

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
KenH said:
The verse says "all" in the Greek, not "all men". Based on the Bible as a whole, the "all" in that verse is God's elect, whom He chose before the world began.
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No, it's based on the ramblings of those old dead men you keep quoting.

The text doesn't have to say "men" it is clear the context of "all" is referring to men.
 
KenH

KenH

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Why do you keep reading "elect" into all those verses Ken?
Click to expand...

The Bible talks about God's elect. Therefore, so do I.

Romans 8:31-34
What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

(emphasis mine)
Silverhair said:
Do you really think the Holy Spirit got it wrong?
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Absolutely not!
 
KenH

KenH

Well-Known Member
Charlie24 said:
OK, this is not Burger King, but you can have it your way.
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I don't want it "my way".

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man,
But the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 16:25
There is a way that seemeth right unto a man,
But the end thereof are the ways of death.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
KenH said:
Huh? What are you talking about?
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To quote you Ken

"The "all" means only those within the purview of Caesar Augustus' decree, not everyone living on the earth at that point in time. The word "all" applied to a particular group of people, not every person on the earth."

On what basis do you conclude that "ALL" really means some? The context does not support your view.

Are you suggesting that judgement has not come upon the world and the ruler of this world will be cast out?
 
C

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
KenH said:
I don't want it "my way".

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man,
But the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 16:25
There is a way that seemeth right unto a man,
But the end thereof are the ways of death.
Click to expand...

I created a thread on that verse the other day and it refers to salvation.

That's not what this conversation is about, we are talking about false doctrine but not the kind that leads to death (separation from God).
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
KenH said:
The Bible talks about God's elect. Therefore, so do I.

Romans 8:31-34
What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

(emphasis mine)


Absolutely not!
Click to expand...

The "Elect One" is Christ Jesus and we are only elect when we are in Him, we are saved. You have people saved prior to them even knowing of God.

You theory is just that Ken. A man-made philosophy that you read into scripture.
 
M

Marooncat79

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Charlie24 said:
Bonar is so perverted in his thoughts of who God is that he can't see the God that grants righteousness to "whosoever will" believe Him.

And so it is with those old dead men who could only picture a God who reserves the right to send anyone He chooses to Hell just be cause He can.
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Again. Man is by nature headed to hell.

God chooses to save some from that horror

Man is NOT in a neutral position in regards to sin. We are condemned and justly so, God chooses to place us in the arms of Christ

Thats election
 
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