If God is not willing that any perish, then why do men perish?

[npetreley]

Is God looking down on earth saying to men, "Nevertheless, not my will, but thine be done"?

 

[UMP]

Because the "any" are the ones who Christ died for. Of that amount, Christ shall lose none. None of these "any" shall perish.

John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

 

[BobRyan]

God sovereignly chose free will for His created beings -- hence HIS OWN description.

"I STAND at the door and KNOCK if ANY MAN hears my voice AND opens the door -- THEN I WILL come in".

God says "TO as many as RECEIVED HIM to THEM he gave the right to be called the sons of God".

God says He sovereignly "DRAWS ALL MANKIND unto HIM".

Even Calvinists admit that the John 12:32 drawing of God enables the choice that TD eliminates.

God is not willing that any should perish AND God is not willing that we all be robots. That SECOND negative is valued higher than the first - apparently.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by UMP:
Because the "any" are the ones who Christ died for. Of that amount, Christ shall lose none. None of these "any" shall perish.

John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

Hear ye hear ye! Anyone may drive my car! And by "anyone" I mean "anyone who is me".

That is the kind of doublespeak games that are 'needed' to make Calvinism true - but can not be made to work in scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[npetreley]

God sovereignly chose free will for His created beings -- hence HIS OWN description.

"I STAND at the door and KNOCK if ANY MAN hears my voice AND opens the door -- THEN I WILL come in".

Then you are confirming what I suggested in the first post. God wants everyone to be saved, but is saying to men, "Nevertheless, not my will, but thine be done."

 

[Ray Berrian]

I seriously consider especially what Greek scholars have to say about the Word.

Dr. Kenneth S. Wuest in his "In These Last Days" says about II Peter 3:9:

p. 70 'His will is not that 'some' should perish, though that is regarded by the writer as inevitable . . . Some will perish, but it is not His will. His will is that all should come to repentance. The goodness of God should lead to repentance.'

p. 71 'It is not God's considered will that any should perish. There is the sovereignty of God and the free will of man. God will not violate man's will. While it is His considered will that no one should be lost, yet in making man in His image He necessarily had to make him a free moral agent, with a will which is able to say, "yes" and "no" to Him. While God is always willing to save man, man is not always willing to be saved.'

Dr. A.T. Robertson, the Baptist scholar says:

'God is not impotent nor unwilling to execute his promise . . . . (He is) not wishing {me boulomenos} Some will perish vs 7, but that is not God's desire. God wishes 'all' (pantas) to come (choreo) the old verb meaning to make room. See Acts 17:30; Romans 11:32; I Timothy 2:4; Hebrews 2:9 for God's provision of grace for all who will repent.'

Do any of you brethren have any other sources coming from Greek scholars?

I would not be surprised if the Lord providentially, posted these men among us so we might more correctly understand His ways.

 

[BobRyan]

God sovereignly chose free will for His created beings -- hence HIS OWN description.

"I STAND at the door and KNOCK if ANY MAN hears my voice AND opens the door -- THEN I WILL come in".

Originally posted by npetreley:
Then you are confirming what I suggested in the first post. God wants everyone to be saved, but is saying to men, "Nevertheless, not my will, but thine be done."

If I made it appear that I am the author of Rev 3 -- I did not mean to do it. Sorry.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by npetreley:
Then you are confirming what I suggested in the first post. God wants everyone to be saved, but is saying to men, "Nevertheless, not my will, but thine be done."

If I made it appear that I am the author of Rev 3 -- I did not mean to do it. Sorry.</font>[/QUOTE]I never claimed you are the author. You are an interpreter. And if your interpretation is correct, then you must believe God is saying to men, "I am not willing that any of you should perish. Nevertheless, not my will, but thine be done."

 

[BobRyan]

Far be it from me to "interpret"...

Lets "let the text speak for itself"

John 1:9

There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 [He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name

John 3

For God so loved the World that he gave his only begotten son - that whoever believes in Him should not perish".

Rev 3

20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Luke 7 – He says that the Pharisees “rejected God’s Purpose for themselves”

30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.
31 "To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like?
32 "They are like children who sit in the market place and call to one another, and they say, 'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not weep.'
33 "For John the baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, 'He has a demon!'
34 "The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'

Matt 7

Lament over Jerusalem

37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Hmm - the point is very clear -- as it turns out. It shows us what the Sovereign God "Chose" to do.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[npetreley]

Hmm - the point is very clear -- as it turns out. It shows us what the Sovereign God "Chose" to do.

We've been over those scriptures countless times, and I know what you think they say. You believe the Sovereign God made the Sovereign decision to leave it up to man to decide whether or not to beleive and be saved.

Thus, according to your soteriology, some men are granted eternal life because they choose of their own free will to believe, and some men perish because they do not choose of their own free will to believe.

Since you and other Arminians/Pelagians insist that "any" refers to "any man who ever lived, lives or will live" when the Bible says, "God is not willing that any perish", then it is clear that people perish outside of God's will but according to man's will.

And that brings us right back to what God is telling man about salvation: "I am not willing that any of you should perish. Nevertheless, not my will, but thine be done."

Now, I find it quite odd that Jesus would model exactly the opposite relationship between man and God when going to the cross, but I'm sure that's something you Arminians/Pelagians can easily explain away or ignore.

 

[Skandelon]

Nick you should take another look at this verse:

There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 [He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name

Calvinists are always explaining away "receiving" as a passive thing, like receiving a pat on the back, but it is clear from this text that the phrase "a many as received Him" is not passive on men's part, because in verse 11 those who were HIS OWN did not receive him, which is clearly an act of the men being unwilling to receive the Christ when he came.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by npetreley:
Is God looking down on earth saying to men, "Nevertheless, not my will, but thine be done"?

This is a silly question. He is simply showing that God doesn't delight or desire the perishing of the wicked, but he desires and delights in the salvation of whoever would receive Christ. He WANTS people to receive Christ just as he wants you to forgive your brothers. Some choose not to receive Christ just as you choose not to forgive your brother. God's desires and his sovereign will are not the same. He desires you to obey him, but he obviously hasn't sovereignly willed for that to occur.

 

[Marcia]

I thought we went through all this on another thread. I posted several examples from scripture with the same word for "willing" to show it means "desiring." God does not desire that any should perish. I posted verse after verse where this same word is translated as desire.

It seems to me that on this Calvinism-Arminianism forum the same arguments are rehashed over and over and over. It's making me insane. The Calvinists are actually convincing me I do not want to be a Calvinist! I also find their arguments less and less convincing the more I read them (sorry guys).

I think I'm done with this forum at least for awhile. See you all on another forum! With a friendly ciao for now ~

 

[npetreley]

I thought we went through all this on another thread. I posted several examples from scripture with the same word for "willing" to show it means "desiring." God does not desire that any should perish. I posted verse after verse where this same word is translated as desire.

Have it your way, then. It doesn't change much. Then God is saying to men, "I do not desire that any of you perish. Nevertheless, not what I desire but thy will be done."

 

[npetreley]

C'mon Arminians/Pelagians. Is it that obvious that you do not deny God is saying this to men? The Sovereign LORD says, "I do not desire that any of you perish. Nevertheless, not what I desire but thy will be done."

 

[Ray Berrian]

Arminians believe in Original Sin and that we all Fell in Adam.

Pelagius was a British monk born about A.D. 370. He taught many things that were wrong. One of the things he believed was that no created soul had any direct relation to the sin of Adam. No sin of Adam was imputed to the human race just the acts of sin that people themselves committed were imputed to sinners.

Our Biblical theology which leans more toward Arminianism is very distinct from the errors of Pelagius.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
Nick you should take another look at this verse:

There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 [He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name

Calvinists are always explaining away "receiving" as a passive thing, like receiving a pat on the back, but it is clear from this text that the phrase "a many as received Him" is not passive on men's part, because in verse 11 those who were HIS OWN did not receive him, which is clearly an act of the men being unwilling to receive the Christ when he came.

And Arminians always stop on verse 12 of this Scripture and build their whole case on that, disregarding what the next is saying.

 

[Ray Berrian]

'And Arminians always stop on verse 12 of this Scripture and build their whole case on that, disregarding what the next is saying.'

Ray is saying, 'No problem. We were not born again, via blood [human geneology or heritage] nor by our own will, as though we could or can regenerate ourselves. Only the Holy Spirit can minister this work in our lives. We were only born again because of the work and ministry of Almighty God. He is to receive all the glory and praise.

God does all the work of regeneration, justification, sanctification and glorification; it is not of human origin. The thing to keep in mind is that God never forces an entrance into our hearts, we have to ' . . . receive Him' [John 1:12] and then He gives His authority in taking us away from being 'children of disobedience' [Ephesians 2:2c] to that of becoming the sons and daughters of God. [John 1:12 & I John 3:2]

See, you have misrepresented us once again; but you are forgiven.

 

[BobRyan]

John 1

4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.

Global context: "The LIGHT OF MEN" unqualified.
"Light shines in DARKNESS" - the entire world is said to be in darkness not just the jews.
"so that ALL might believe through Him" Unqualified - the message of John in the Gospels has gone to all the WORLD.

8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

In vs 12 we see that the action of those who received Christ is what determines the result and in the Greek the reception is in the "active voice". It does not state that some other action was taken forcing them to be children of God and then merely note that they also "received Christ". (Analytical Greek NT - "indicative mood" and "active voice" used for receive in John 1:12)

Notice "children of A God" just does not work here.
Notice "Nor of the will of man, but of A God" is not workable. No justification for such abuse of the text.

Born of blood - refering to natural birth.

God's part: Sending His Son as light into the world - the same world that was made through him - (global unqualified non-restrictive context.)
not only into the world but also to his own (those he chose for himself) -

Man's part - history (those chosen as "his own" failed - they did not receive HIM).
- standing offer - BUT To as many as RECEIVED Him (by contrast to HIS CHOSEN "OWN" - who did NOT receive Him)

God's part - to them he gave the right to become children of God.

God's part - to cause those that receive him to be born again.

Calvinism "hope" of course is to ignore the sequence - to lift God's part out - and delete man's part so that NO sequence appears - JUST God causing man to be born again - arbitrarily selecting prior to any reference of man receiving anything. Calvinism's attempt to ignore the complete text fails.

The Arminian principle of
-God first acting to supernaturally bring salvation to all,
- then calling for man to respond and receive,
- then subsequently
providing that those who act and receive - shall then have the right to become children of god following their act of receiving.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
And Arminians always stop on verse 12 of this Scripture and build their whole case on that, disregarding what the next is saying.

I have dealt with verse 13 at least 3 times on this board in recent days, as have many other Arminians here, not to mention the many scholars who have written commentaries on the subject for centuries.