If God Never decreed/ordained the Fall...

[Agent47]

@JonC you did not respond to Post 77
http://www.baptistboard.com/threads...-ordained-the-fall.103278/page-4#post-2283032
Following your definition of Fall,

In my finite and negligible wisdom, I view decrees as commands akin to creative commands; 'let there be...'

If there was no 'let there be...' say light, there would have been no light. So I can confidently assert that light for instance was necessitated by the 'let there be light...' command. The command caused light.

Question was, had there been no Fall decree, would man have transitioned? Or in other words did this decree necessitate the transition?

 

[JonC]

@JonC you did not respond to Post 77
http://www.baptistboard.com/threads...-ordained-the-fall.103278/page-4#post-2283032
Following your definition of Fall,

In my finite and negligible wisdom, I view decrees as commands akin to creative commands; 'let there be...'

If there was no 'let there be...' say light, there would have been no light. So I can confidently assert that light for instance was necessitated by the 'let there be light...' command. The command caused light.

Question was, had there been no Fall decree, would man have transitioned? Or in other words did this decree necessitate the transition?

You still have not answered my repeated requests for an answer as well, but for my part it is oversight. Apologies.

To answer your question, hypothetically, the Fall not occurring would mean God had another plan. I do not know what it could have looked like, but I do know that God's purposes will be accomplished.

 

[Agent47]

You still have not answered my repeated requests for an answer as well, but for my part it is oversight. Apologies.

To answer your question, hypothetically, the Fall not occurring would mean God had another plan. I do not know what it could have looked like, but I do know that God's purposes will be accomplished.

You have not answered.

The question is whether what has not been decreed can occur. I just made reference to an event you believe was decreed

 

[JonC]

Distinguish permissive will rendered certain (PWRC) from decretive will(DW)

Was PWRC at play in Adam's sinning?

I'll just explain what I mean instead of taking the chance on definitions (I will trust you to place it in your proper category).

God refrained from providing Adam the grace to conquer temptation. Adam was enticed by his own lusts, which gave birth to sin.

In other words, God permitted Adam to sin by allowing him to freely choose when God could have prevented the situation all together.

 

[JonC]

You have not answered.

The question is whether what has not been decreed can occur. I just made reference to an event you believe was decreed

Sorry. I'm doing a couple of things at once and misunderstood.

Sin has not been decreed (it is not necessary that men sin), yet sin occurs.

 

[Agent47]

Sorry. I'm doing a couple of things at once and misunderstood.

Sin has not been decreed (it is not necessary that men sin), yet sin occurs.

What has been decreed must occur
What has not been decreed may occur

Am I right?

 

[JonC]

What has been decreed must occur
What has not been decreed may occur

Am I right?

No. What God decrees is what occurs by God's command. What is permitted occurs because God allows it.

Scripture teaches that God has a will, design, plan, purpose for Creation and that God actively causes things in accord with this will. God's purposes will be accomplished because God will accomplish them.

At the same time, men are free agents in Creation. Men make their plans, freely. God does not command man to sin. Instead God permits men to freely choose. If nothing is decreed then everything is happenstance and human invention. If nothing is permitted, then human free agency does not exist.

All things fall into God's purposes, but not all things are necessary even if certain. Sin is never necessary, but all that occurs is certain (God knew them before they came to pass and was willing that they occur).

What is decreed and purposed (what God actively wills and those things that are permitted as a result of God's active will) will certainly occur. Other things are possibilities that never materialize (God was unwilling to permit something to occur, for example).

All men can be saved. This is a possibility Christ secured on the Cross. But not all men will be saved. And this is a certainty because God knew who would and wold not believe before the earth was ever formed. Yet still, God created those who he knew were destined to destruction. Does this mean God decreed their condemnation?

Calvinist will normally say "no". God chose out of fallen man some to save.

I say "yes", because God decreed the Fall (not Adam's sin, but that the fall should occur). And this condemnation applies to all men for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

I hope this helps explain my position. I eagerly await your answer as well.

 

[Agent47]

No. What God decrees is what occurs by God's command. What is permitted occurs because God allows it.

Scripture teaches that God has a will, design, plan, purpose for Creation and that God actively causes things in accord with this will. God's purposes will be accomplished because God will accomplish them.

At the same time, men are free agents in Creation. Men make their plans, freely. God does not command man to sin. Instead God permits men to freely choose. If nothing is decreed then everything is happenstance and human invention. If nothing is permitted, then human free agency does not exist.

All things fall into God's purposes, but not all things are necessary even if certain. Sin is never necessary, but all that occurs is certain (God knew them before they came to pass and was willing that they occur).

Not sure why you hopped from decree to permission.

Can you say that of all that occurs they are either decreed or permitted such that whatever is not decreed is permitted?

 

[JonC]

Not sure why you hopped from decree to permission.

Can you say that of all that occurs they are either decreed or permitted such that whatever is not decreed is permitted?

I believe so. The reason I 'hopped" was to try and cover everything. I did not want to leave you with the impression that what is not decreed is not a certainty.

 

[Agent47]

I'll just explain what I mean instead of taking the chance on definitions (I will trust you to place it in your proper category).

God refrained from providing Adam the grace to conquer temptation. Adam was enticed by his own lusts, which gave birth to sin.

In other words, God permitted Adam to sin by allowing him to freely choose when God could have prevented the situation all together.

It's clear.

Taking you back on your definition of the Fall, would you say God decreed Adam Falling?

 

[JonC]

It's clear.

Taking you back on your definition of the Fall, would you say God decreed Adam Falling?

Yes, of course. God actively placed Adam in the Garden where God knew as a certainty that Adam would sin. We both agreed on this part several posts back.

What God did not decree was Adam's sin. God was not obligated to grace Adam with the measure of grace needed to overcome this temptation. The sin was born out of Adam's lusts when tempted. God could have prevented it by fortifying Adam somehow, I suppose. He could have prevented it by banning the Serpent, not commanding Adam to refrain from eating the fruit, not putting man in the Garden, and not creating man to begin with.

I suppose the correct terminology would be that God decreed the Fall, that it should occur. But God ordained Adam's sin, not that it should occur but that in occurring it fulfilled his purposes.

 

[Agent47]

I believe so. The reason I 'hopped" was to try and cover everything. I did not want to leave you with the impression that what is not decreed is not a certainty.

This term needs to be expounded.
What do you mean by it?

 

[Agent47]

Yes, of course.
.

God decreed Adam's transition. So would you say God authored Adam's fall?

Did God make Adam fall?

 

[Agent47]

According to @JonC God infallibly decreed Adam's Fall but not Adam's sin which caused his Fall.

I'd love to believe that decrees are certain or unambiguous with regard to the space and time. So there's no way Adam's Falling Decree would 'hit' Zerubbabel. Reason being Zerubbabel is not Adam, and he lived in a different time from Adam.

Means we have God decreeing Adam's Fall at a specific time t, and at this exact time t Adam freely sins and Falls fulfilling the decree.

Gen 1:3 KJV
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

And God said, Let Adam Fall: and Adam Fell.

How does God fulfil Adam's Falling Decree? Simple by making Adam Fall. He should 'own' Falling Adam as much as he owns up to making light.

It is possible he merely decreed, and then left it to chance that Adam would fulfil his decree at the exact point he had decreed. And by sheer coincidence, it happened exactly as he had decreed. But in this case the decree is just a hollow and lucky wish.

Another explanation is, He meticulously cobbled up a perfect environment and circumstances under which Adam would not but do exactly what God forbade him. God herded Adam into sin,and once at the sin's door he refrained from preventing it. Makes sense for why sabotage his own plans? Who will execute his decrees other than himself!

 

[JonC]

This term needs to be expounded.
What do you mean by it?

I mean that God knew as a fact all that would happen (the future is "written in stone" for God). This includes all of the works of God as well as the fruits of men.

In other words, I don't believe God sits back and analyzed the situation, making plans, ect. God is eternal and knows from start to finish, as a certainly, what will occur.

 

[JonC]

God decreed Adam's transition. So would you say God authored Adam's fall?

Did God make Adam fall?

No, God didn't make Adam fall. The Fall was an event essential to God's plan of redemption, so it was in accord with God's plan for the good.

God did not prevent Adam's sin. He allowed Adam to freely choose, and refrained from giving the grace that Adam would prevail over his own lusts and temptation.

 

[Agent47]

I mean that God knew as a fact all that would happen (the future is "written in stone" for God). This includes all of the works of God as well as the fruits of men.

In other words, I don't believe God sits back and analyzed the situation, making plans, ect. God is eternal and knows from start to finish, as a certainly, what will occur.

I believe this too sir.
God's exhaustive foreknowledge includes contingencies or future freewill choices.

So I don't see the need to cause,render certain bla bla everything in order to possess perfect foreknowledge.

Open theism asserts that God's foreknowledge is restricted to what God ordains/causes/necessitates....The rest is open. Very unscriptural

 

[Agent47]

No, God didn't make Adam fall.

So God decreed but didn't cause the Fall?

He is not responsible for his own infallible decree?

 

[JonC]

I believe this too sir.
God's exhaustive foreknowledge includes contingencies or future freewill choices.

So I don't see the need to cause,render certain bla bla everything in order to possess perfect foreknowledge.

Open theism asserts that God's foreknowledge is restricted to what God ordains/causes/necessitates....The rest is open. Very unscriptural

When I say this, please understand that I am not taking up for Open Theism (I believe it a heresy and a departure from free-will theology that resides within orthodox Christianity), but they do bring up a point. Open Theism believes that God knows all that there is to know, but that the outcome of contingent events (to include the decisions of men) are simply unknowable (they are not a part of what can be known, therefore God's omniscience remains intact).

The reason I bring this up is that I believe God knows the heart of man, and that before God created us he knew all of our thoughts, even the number of hairs on our head. When we look at the Fall, and we consider that God knows all things (to include our hearts, our intentions, our thoughts) then for all practical applications predestination is a given.

All things are predestined to occur as God has known they would occur. In other words, if God knew before you were born that you would be saved then your salvation is predetermined. If God knew before Rudolf Carnap was born that he would reject Christ and die an atheist, then his damnation was predetermined.

Before God created the world, God knew without a doubt everything that would come to pass. God knew the Fall, man's sin, the Cross, those who would be saved, those who would be lost....the beginning and the end. And knowing this it was God's will that Creation as he designed occur. For example, the fact that God created Adam knowing he would fall testifies to the willingness of God that the Fall occur.

 

[JonC]

So God decreed but didn't cause the Fall?

He is not responsible for his own infallible decree?

Decreed or not, all things (if God knows all) will infallibly pass.

You affirmed divine omniscience and agreed that God knew Adam would sin.
If God places Adam in a situation where God knows that he will certainly sin, then yes, the Fall was in accordance with God's purposes. What is interesting is the relationship of redemption. If God created Adam knowing Adam would fall, then the scene turns from man to God. God created man in a sense to fall. Not to sin, but to be redeemed. Redemption then, moves from "plan B" to God's eternal counsel and purpose and Jesus moves from being a reactionary figure to being the One for Whom and in Whom all things exist.