If I were a Calvinist...

[OldRegular]

It's not an accusation, it's a point of view. The only reason there has been so much animosity so quickly is because the premise shows one problem with the Calvinist doctrine.

If this OP is so ridiculous it would be easy to refute, but I notice I have not gotten any Scripture or logical rebuttal, only vitriol and anger.

The post is asinine. You freewillers are putting yourself in the place of GOD. But then you do that when you make yourself sovereign in salvation.

 

[OldRegular]

Yes Amy, you are correct. Many Calvinists do not understand the clear teaching of scripture.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Marcia]

Straight from the horse's mouth:

Institutes 4:16
Children of Christians "are immediately on their birth received by God as heirs of the covenant".

I asked but no one answered.

Do Calvinists really believe this?

 

[annsni]

I asked but no one answered.

Do Calvinists really believe this?

I believe God wills to save who He wills to save. I don't know how He deals with children because, honestly, He's never told us. Personally, I do not see how a child who has not had a chance to believe can be condemned but I can not say for certain what happens. But I do know one thing: God is good and God is just. If I believe in the God of the Bible, I know that He will do what is right. I trust Him with the two children I conceived who never had a chance to see the light of this world. If He willed to not save them for whatever reason, I know it was right. If He willed to save them, I know it was right. I know God's character. He's my daddy and I trust Him.

 

[canadyjd]

I asked but no one answered.

Do Calvinists really believe this?

John Calvin apparently believed it, but I do not. I think Calvin supported infant baptism (as the sign of the convenant) and a "spiritual presence" of Christ in the Lord's supper (if I remember correctly what others have said .)

I have never read much of Calvin.

But, concerning the doctrines of predestination, election, effectual calling, perseverence of the saints and total inability of man to come to God without God's intervention .... scripture seemed very clear to me as I read it on my own.

As far as Calvinists being afraid of having children, the OP assumes that those who support the doctrines of Grace believe they have the supernatural ability to determine who is going to be saved. That is rubbish.

I pray for the salvation of my children (as well as others). I ask God to intervene in their lives. I ask God to violate their human will, to draw them (as He as promised to those who come to Christ), to bring them to salvation. I ask Him to have mercy, and to transform their lives according to His good pleasure by the power of Holy Spirit.

On the other hand, I wonder if the Arminians pray that God just stay alert and be ready to save their children, should the children decide of their own free will to come to Christ (even though scripture clearly says no one can come unless the Father draw them).

I wonder if they pray according to what they believe (as I do)? Perhaps they say,

"Father, go ahead and draw my children... but don't violate their free-will in the process. I know you are able to bring them to salvation, since you are all powerful and I fully accept your sovereignty... except in the area of salvation... because I know You have left that up to us...

...Just give them a little nudge in the right direction, but don't violate their free-will because everybody knows that human free will is the most important thing in the universe. I know that unless they love you of their own free-will, it isn't really the kind of love you want."

Nooooo! I don't think so. I suspect arminians and calvinists pray very similar prayers when it comes to their children.

peace to youraying:

 

[Winman]

I pray for the salvation of my children (as well as others). I ask God to intervene in their lives. I ask God to violate their human will, to draw them (as He as promised to those who come to Christ), to bring them to salvation. I ask Him to have mercy, and to transform their lives according to His good pleasure by the power of Holy Spirit.

How can this help if God has already determined before the foundation of the world that they are not the elect?

 

[canadyjd]

How can this help if God has already determined before the foundation of the world that they are not the elect?

Well, considering your POV, I guess I could ask you why bother God at all by praying for someone's salvation, since God isn't going to intervene in their lives and violate their free will?

Prayer, all prayer IMHO, is for our benefit. It helps us to be more Christlike... to pour out our hearts on behalf of others.

I don't do it to change God's mind. I do it in hopes my mind will be more closely aligned to the mind of Christ, that my will.... will be more aligned with God's will.

I don't know who God has chosen for salvation. Nothing would make me happier than for the whole world to come to salvation today, every single person on the planet.... however, I don't think that will happen because it would be contrary to what God has revealed in His Word.

I do think your question demonstrates a lack of understanding on your part of what "reformed" folks believe. You seem to view us as callous, unfeeling intellectuals that want to declare ourselves to be saved but believe very few others are.

I can think of no one I know of the "reformed" position, that doesn't have a heartfelt urgency to proclaim the gospel to people, to pray for their salvation, to ask God to have mercy on others as He has had mercy on themselves.

peace to youraying:

 

[Amy.G]

Amy.G

You are putting yourself in the place of GOD. A bit presumptive I think!

How so? I said they have "hope". If they do not believe, it is not because God did not give them hope for salvation. Jesus is hope for every man, not just some.


I think John Calvin was rather presumptuous saying that all children of believers will be saved.

 

[annsni]

Well, considering your POV, I guess I could ask you why bother God at all by praying for someone's salvation, since God isn't going to intervene in their lives and violate their free will?

Prayer, all prayer IMHO, is for our benefit. It helps us to be more Christlike... to pour out our hearts on behalf of others.

I don't do it to change God's mind. I do it in hopes my mind will be more closely aligned to the mind of Christ, that my will.... will be more aligned with God's will.

I don't know who God has chosen for salvation. Nothing would make me happier than for the whole world to come to salvation today, every single person on the planet.... however, I don't think that will happen because it would be contrary to what God has revealed in His Word.

I do think your question demonstrates a lack of understanding on your part of what "reformed" folks believe. You seem to view us as callous, unfeeling intellectuals that want to declare ourselves to be saved but believe very few others are.

I can think of no one I know of the "reformed" position, that doesn't have a heartfelt urgency to proclaim the gospel to people, to pray for their salvation, to ask God to have mercy on others as He has had mercy on themselves.

peace to youraying:

Amen....... (dots to make the post longer - LOL)

 

[Amy.G]

...Just give them a little nudge in the right direction, but don't violate their free-will because everybody knows that human free will is the most important thing in the universe. I know that unless they love you of their own free-will, it isn't really the kind of love you want."


peace to youraying:

After salvation, do you have free will? If so, does God ever "violate" your free will?
When you sin, is it of your own free will? If so, why doesn't God step in before you sin and "violate" your free will? Thereby keeping you sinless?

 

[preachinjesus]

If I were a Calvinist I would be afraid to have children. After all, there would seem to be a good possibility that not all of them would be elect.

Say a person had five children, wouldn't the law of averages say that some of them probably would not be one of the elect and would go to hell?

Unless you believe in universal reconciliation, or that all persons are saved from birth, that the onus of your position is no different than that of the Calvinist. Any Christian who is a believer in original sin, grace through faith, exclusivistic terms of salvation has no different positin than the Calvinist when it comes to their children.

Do you believe in univerisal reconciliation?
Do you believe that all the children of a Christian parent will always be saved?

 

[Winman]

Well, considering your POV, I guess I could ask you why bother God at all by praying for someone's salvation, since God isn't going to intervene in their lives and violate their free will?

God doesn't violate their free will, but that doesn't mean he can't exert an influence on them, that doesn't mean he can't call and plead with them to come to Christ. Anybody who has ever dealt with a car saleman knows they can exert an influence on you, persuade you to buy a car when you just came to look that day. They don't pay those guys just to annoy you when you look for cars.

I have some family members who are very obstinate toward Christ. I pray and ask God that he would be merciful and not give them up. I pray he will do everything possible to bring them to Christ. Who knows, God may have given them up a long time ago if not for my prayers.

But in Calvinism a prayer for a loved one is meaningless. If God has already decided they are not the elect, then all your prayers are a meaningless waste of time.

Prayer, all prayer IMHO, is for our benefit. It helps us to be more Christlike... to pour out our hearts on behalf of others.

Prayer is meaningless if God has already decided what is going to take place.

I do think your question demonstrates a lack of understanding on your part of what "reformed" folks believe. You seem to view us as callous, unfeeling intellectuals that want to declare ourselves to be saved but believe very few others are.

I didn't say anything like that. I think what you just said is amazing, and shows that deep down you see some problems with your system.

 

[Robert Snow]

The post is asinine. You freewillers are putting yourself in the place of GOD. But then you do that when you make yourself sovereign in salvation.

I respect you OR; I will not insult you and say things about you that are untrue. So please, have the same respect toward those who disagree with you.

I am not putting myself in the place of God, deciding who receives Christ or not. I am simply believing what I think the Bible teaches. I agree that God could have decided and completely left man out of the picture, but according to the teachings of the Bible, I don't think He did it that way.

If God, in His sovereignty decided to allow a man to choose, then no one is usurping God's authority, we are just doing what He allowed.

 

[Robert Snow]

I believe God wills to save who He wills to save. I don't know how He deals with children because, honestly, He's never told us. Personally, I do not see how a child who has not had a chance to believe can be condemned but I can not say for certain what happens. But I do know one thing: God is good and God is just. If I believe in the God of the Bible, I know that He will do what is right. I trust Him with the two children I conceived who never had a chance to see the light of this world. If He willed to not save them for whatever reason, I know it was right. If He willed to save them, I know it was right. I know God's character. He's my daddy and I trust Him.

I don't agree with your position on Calvinism, but I admire you for your faith in our heavenly Father!

 

[annsni]

God doesn't violate their free will, but that doesn't mean he can't exert an influence on them, that doesn't mean he can't call and plead with them to come to Christ. Anybody who has ever dealt with a car saleman knows they can exert an influence on you, persuade you to buy a car when you just came to look that day. They don't pay those guys just to annoy you when you look for cars.

I have some family members who are very obstinate toward Christ. I pray and ask God that he would be merciful and not give them up. I pray he will do everything possible to bring them to Christ. Who knows, God may have given them up a long time ago if not for my prayers.

First off, I wouldn't compare God to a car saleseman.

But what you're saying is that God begs and pleads but man's will is stronger than God's will?

But in Calvinism a prayer for a loved one is meaningless. If God has already decided they are not the elect, then all your prayers are a meaningless waste of time.

Prayer is meaningless if God has already decided what is going to take place.

How do we know that they are NOT one of the elect and God will not use our prayers to bring them to Christ AND to sanctify us? Why pray for a healing if God has decided that one will die anyway? Why don't we just let it all happen however it's going to happen?

 

[canadyjd]

After salvation, do you have free will? If so, does God ever "violate" your free will?

I have a human will. Prior to salvation, it was enslaved to sin. I know this because Jesus said so. (John 8:34) The slave does the will of this master. I know this because the Apostle Paul, under the inspiration of Holy Spirit said so. (Romans 7).

Prior to salvation, my will was in bondage to sin. I was not the master of my own destiny. If God had not intervened in my life and brought me to salvation, I would still be enslaved to sin.

When you sin, is it of your own free will?

My human will is still prone to fall short of God's expectations. I am accountable for my sin.

If so, why doesn't God step in before you sin and "violate" your free will? Thereby keeping you sinless?

I don't have "free will". I have "human will".

God has not promised to "step in" before I sin to keep me from sinning by "violating" my will. I don't know why.

He has promised Holy Spirit to convict me and bring me to repentance when I sin. He has promised to discipline those that He loves when they sin and grieve Holy Spirit. Christ has promised to intercede before the Father when the devil brings accusations. God has promised forgiveness should I confess my sin and ask for it.

Why doesn't He violate my human will to keep me from sinning? Probably to keep my humble, I guess. To make sure I always rely upon Him to strengthen me. To make sure I never forget what I was before He brought me to salvation so that I can have compassion toward others who are, themselves, enslaved to sin.

That's my best guess.

peace to youraying:

 

[Amy.G]

Why doesn't He violate my human will to keep me from sinning? Probably to keep my humble, I guess. To make sure I always rely upon Him to strengthen me. To make sure I never forget what I was before He brought me to salvation so that I can have compassion toward others who are, themselves, enslaved to sin.

That's my best guess.

peace to youraying:

You guess? It doesn't seem very wise to me to base your doctrine on a guess.

So, God "violates" your "human will" by saving you, but doesn't violate your human will to keep you from sinning. And that makes sense to you?

 

[OldRegular]

I respect you OR; I will not insult you and say things about you that are untrue. So please, have the same respect toward those who disagree with you.

I am not putting myself in the place of God, deciding who receives Christ or not. I am simply believing what I think the Bible teaches. I agree that God could have decided and completely left man out of the picture, but according to the teachings of the Bible, I don't think He did it that way.

If God, in His sovereignty decided to allow a man to choose, then no one is usurping God's authority, we are just doing what He allowed.

You are right. I should not have written what I did to you because you always have been respectful to me.

As far as children GOD told us to be fruitful when it came to bearing children so we should be obedient to HIM. I certainly understand your concern about the Salvation of any children you may have. I simply have more faith in the Grace of GOD than I do in the so-called free will of man.

 

[Skandelon]

As most of you know, I'm no longer a Calvinist, but back when I was one and this question was posed to me I would answer: "Would you rather trust our perfect God, or your imperfect child with their eternal salvation?"

Interestingly enough, that answer still applies now that I'm not a Calvinist...though I now acknowledge my child's responsibility in his salvation I still must ultimately trust God with all things. (and I mean responsibility in the sense of "response-able" meaning able to willingly respond, so don't give me the whole, "Calvinists believe in responsibility too" line...)

 

[canadyjd]

God doesn't violate their free will, but that doesn't mean he can't exert an influence on them, that doesn't mean he can't call and plead with them to come to Christ.

Do you believe a person can come to salvation without God "exerting" an influence on them? Does He exert the same amount of influence with each person? Why or why not?

But in Calvinism a prayer for a loved one is meaningless. If God has already decided they are not the elect, then all your prayers are a meaningless waste of time.

I guess we'll disagree on whether my prayers are a waste of time or not. I don't think so.

I didn't say anything like that. I think what you just said is amazing, and shows that deep down you see some problems with your system.

You are the one asking why Calvinists pray at all. You are the one saying that Calvinist's prayers are a waste of time and meaningless. Obviously, that is how you believe "calvinists" should view their own prayers, which is utter nonsense.

BTW, my "system" is:

1. read the bible

2. understand the words that are written

3. understand the context in which the words are written

4. if my opinion differs from what the bible says, change my opinion


My "system" has worked pretty well, so far. I have no "problem" with my system. If I am in error. I will change my mind.

You, however, have not convinced me that I am in error.

peace to youraying: