If I were a Calvinist...

[Robert Snow]

If I were a Calvinist I would be afraid to have children. After all, there would seem to be a good possibility that not all of them would be elect.

Say a person had five children, wouldn't the law of averages say that some of them probably would not be one of the elect and would go to hell?

 

[TomVols]

Why not set it on its other ear? Why have children if you're not a Calvinist? What if they don't work up the faith to have salvation? They might continually reject Christ and choose some false religion resulting in their damnation (if you believe this does damn people). So don't have kids who might choose differently.

See how fallacious it all is?

 

[Amy.G]

Why not set it on its other ear? Why have children if you're not a Calvinist? What if they don't work up the faith to have salvation? They might continually reject Christ and choose some false religion resulting in their damnation (if you believe this does damn people). So don't have kids who might choose differently.

See how fallacious it all is?

But from a non-cal position, there is hope for all of those 5 children. From a Cal position, for some of the children, there is no hope.

 

[TomVols]

But from a non-cal position, there is hope for all of those 5 children. From a Cal position, for some of the children, there is no hope.

All Calvinists would reject the latter, and I reject the former based on the premise of the OP, that being, statistcal tendencies and the law of numbers. Given the trends of the day, four out of the five kids have no hope.

I say that to illustrate how fallacious this is to levy this charge against Calvinists.

 

[Grasshopper]

Why not set it on its other ear? Why have children if you're not a Calvinist? What if they don't work up the faith to have salvation? They might continually reject Christ and choose some false religion resulting in their damnation (if you believe this does damn people). So don't have kids who might choose differently.

See how fallacious it all is?

No no. Christ dies for everyman, everybody is saved.

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The word propitiation carries the basic idea of appeasement, or satisfaction, specifically towards God. Propitiation is a two-part act that involves appeasing the wrath of an offended person and being reconciled to them. http://www.theopedia.com/Propitiation

God's wrath was satisfied in Jesus. Jesus propitiated the sins of all men. There is no more wrath for God to poor out on sinners since Jesus already took it for everyone.

I think I'll be a nonCal and have all my kids saved and all their kids saved and all their kids saved and.............

 

[Victorious]

I AM a Calvinist and I think this is a contentious post, but I'm glad this forum allows it. It's very telling.:tear:

 

[Tom Bryant]

I am not a Calvinist and think this Original post is ridiculous. If you want to debate the Scripture, debate the Scripture. But accusations like this do nothing to advance anyone's position and they only add to the acrimony on both sides.

 

[Robert Snow]

I am not a Calvinist and think this Original post is ridiculous. If you want to debate the Scripture, debate the Scripture. But accusations like this do nothing to advance anyone's position and they only add to the acrimony on both sides.

It's not an accusation, it's a point of view. The only reason there has been so much animosity so quickly is because the premise shows one problem with the Calvinist doctrine.

If this OP is so ridiculous it would be easy to refute, but I notice I have not gotten any Scripture or logical rebuttal, only vitriol and anger.

 

[Jerome]

Straight from the horse's mouth:

Institutes 4:16
Children of Christians "are immediately on their birth received by God as heirs of the covenant".

 

[Amy.G]

No no. Christ dies for everyman, everybody is saved.

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The word propitiation carries the basic idea of appeasement, or satisfaction, specifically towards God. Propitiation is a two-part act that involves appeasing the wrath of an offended person and being reconciled to them. http://www.theopedia.com/Propitiation

God's wrath was satisfied in Jesus. Jesus propitiated the sins of all men. There is no more wrath for God to poor out on sinners since Jesus already took it for everyone.

I think I'll be a nonCal and have all my kids saved and all their kids saved and all their kids saved and.............

Yes, propitiation satisfies God's wrath against sin, but if one doesn't believe, he is condemned.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


It was the same under the OT. Atonement was made on behalf of all Israel, but only those with faith were saved.


There must be atonement for sin and faith in that atonement.

 

[annsni]

But from a non-cal position, there is hope for all of those 5 children. From a Cal position, for some of the children, there is no hope.

Why is there no hope? Our hope is in God - not our children. However, I have 4 children and each and every one of them is saved. Securely. From my 19 year old to my 7 year old, God called each and every one. So I absolutely have hope. In Christ.

 

[Robert Snow]

Straight from the horse's mouth:

Institutes 4:16
Children of Christians "are immediately on their birth received by God as heirs of the covenant".

Thank you. I have never read Institutes, as I don't think much of Calvin or his doctrine, but at least this is a logical rebuttal to my OP.

 

[Grasshopper]

Yes, propitiation satisfies God's wrath against sin, but if one doesn't believe, he is condemned.

Isn't it ones sins that condemn you?

It was the same under the OT. Atonement was made on behalf of all Israel, but only those with faith were saved.

What about all those outside of Israel?

There must be atonement for sin and faith in that atonement.

Then this verse is conditional?

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Jerome]

If I were a Calvie
I'd cavil in the morning
I'd cavil in the evening
All over this board
I'd yammer 'bout Piper
I'd yammer 'bout Kuyper
I'd yammer 'bout my Confession and my obsession
All over this board.

 

[Grasshopper]

If I were a Calvie
I'd cavil in the morning
I'd cavil in the evening
All over this board
I'd yammer 'bout Piper
I'd yammer 'bout Kuyper
I'd yammer 'bout my Confession and my obsession
All over this board.

Yet it is the anti-cal's who start most of the threads.:laugh:

 

[Winman]

Yes, propitiation satisfies God's wrath against sin, but if one doesn't believe, he is condemned.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It was the same under the OT. Atonement was made on behalf of all Israel, but only those with faith were saved.

There must be atonement for sin and faith in that atonement.

Yes Amy, you are correct. Many Calvinists do not understand the clear teaching of scripture.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

The gospel is preached to all men, but does not profit all men. Why? Because some did not have faith. Lack of faith is why the gospel does not profit them, not because Jesus did not die for them.

Look at verse 1 and it clearly shows this. It speaks of a promise (salvation through faith in Christ) and says to fear lest any seem to come short of it. This shows the promise applies to all men, but some will come short of it. And verse 2 says why, because they did not believe the gospel.

Verse 1 shows Calvinism false, because it proves God's grace is not irresistable. If it is irresistable, no man need fear coming short of it.

 

[annsni]

Yes Amy, you are correct. Many Calvinists do not understand the clear teaching of scripture.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

The gospel is preached to all men, but does not profit all men. Why? Because some did not have faith. Lack of faith is why the gospel does not profit them, not because Jesus did not die for them.

Look at verse 1 and it clearly shows this. It speaks of a promise (salvation through faith in Christ) and says to fear lest any seem to come short of it. This shows the promise applies to all men, but some will come short of it. And verse 2 says why, because they did not believe the gospel.

Verse 1 shows Calvinism false, because it proves God's grace is not irresistable. If it is irresistable, no man need fear coming short of it.

Your conclusions are quite erronious regarding Calvinism. Calvinism fully agrees that some will come short because they did not believe the Gospel.

 

[Winman]

Your conclusions are quite erronious regarding Calvinism. Calvinism fully agrees that some will come short because they did not believe the Gospel.

Not so. Calvinism teaches that Jesus did not die for the unelect, therefore, they could not have the promise of salvation.

So logically, the promise of salvation can only apply to the elect. But Calvinism teaches God's grace is irresistable, and therefore the elect can not possibly come short of this promise.

So, this makes Hebrews 4:1 an impossibility and non-sensical.

 

[Marcia]

Straight from the horse's mouth:

Institutes 4:16
Children of Christians "are immediately on their birth received by God as heirs of the covenant".

That is a scary, scary quote!

Do Calvinists believe this? I thought "God has no grandchildren."

 

[OldRegular]

But from a non-cal position, there is hope for all of those 5 children. From a Cal position, for some of the children, there is no hope.

Amy.G

You are putting yourself in the place of GOD. A bit presumptive I think!