If Jesus Died On The Cross For You...

[HAMel]

The OP simply puts forth the mistaken doctrine of Calvinism without mentioning Calvinism.

No, Van..., I am about as far away from Calvinism as one can get. If our Lord created an endless universe and named each and every star therein..., I could lose my salvation after I once come to Him? Not hardly. Once saved - Always saved! To me, Calvinism is but a tool utilized as a guilt trip on unsuspecting people. No disrespect intended to those who believe that way but for me, Calvinism just isn't scriptural.

Just consider the recorded testimony of the one thief on the Cross. He admitted his guilt; admitted that Jesus was Lord; and asked Him to remember him. This poor boy got saved that day minutes before he died. I mean, this guy didn't even have the opportunity to walk an isle. Calvinism folks don't believe in "death bed" conversions..., from what I've been told.

In my book, salvation is that easily attained. No jumping pews; no moving to the Congo to become a missionary; no nothing. Just coming to know Jesus by accepting Him when He calls via the Holy Spirit through willing Christians allowing themselves to be used for His glory.

When Jesus died on that cross He died for "me". He died for "you" also but that's between "you" and Him. To think the Lord might have slippery fingers letting one perish after the fact is total nonsense.

 

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Benjamin
IOWs Dude said: "All that matters is the message that he died for "me" and "you"..." to which you (Hank) said Amen.

How can a Calvinist deliver such a "message" (that Jesus died for YOU) with a straight face?!?

http://www.baptistsymposium.com/foru...he-gospel-poll

Of course no Calvinist would say that.

Well, then, I’ll commend YOU on being a consistent Calvinist in that at least YOU will openly admit that YOU believe the Gospel is a message of no hope for most.

We would proclaim the biblical message that Jesus came to save sinners. Everyone believing will be saved.

Yeah, I get it, so IOWs you have this tricky little way of leaving out the part concerning your belief that only the lucky pre-selected elect few actually have the ability to respond and believe in the truth. Unless, of course, they mock and scoff you then you’ll give it (the news, “that God has not planned to save everyone”) to them straight and lay it all on them, eh?

Yeah, we’ve got to the bottom line of your “good news” delivery before…no sense in rehashing that. Again, I get it, I see serious error in it, but I get it.

I can only know what the scripture says.

Icon, just between you and me, it would seem more sincere if you’d try being more transparent by saying something like: “I can only know what the scriptures say according to the Calvinist philosophical systematic interpretations of them.”

The Apostles never said anywhere in Acts....Jesus died for you in particular....it is found nowhere in scripture.

Sorry, but regarding that statement, personally, I can only assume that you’ve been muddled into believing that your Calvinist’ presuppositional interpretations of scripture actually confirm your “inspired” 1689 LBC theological systematic views …while simultaneously believing you’re under the delusion that all the scriptures I could show you pertaining to a genuine offer of grace for belief in the truth, to ALL men, don’t actually mean what they say.

Of course you already know that I believe God’s promises to ALL are according to His true judgment of volitional creatures as per these Calvinism refuting scriptures:

(Deu 32:4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

…and therefore I believe that none will have an excuse (such as claiming to have predestined inability or otherwise to have no other choice than to accept) for not volitionally responding in love of the truth to what God has made to known to them:

(Rom 1:20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

How have you been Benjamin?

I’ve been well and typically quite busy these days, thank you. But feel free to drop by anytime.

 

[Benjamin]

So say you. ALL belong to the LORD.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John defines the "whole world" in later verses:

NIV 1 John 5:19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

There are only two classes of people here : the children of God and NOT the children of God.

His blood is the propitiation for everyone's sins including the "NOT the children of God", we, they, are His to do with whatever He pleases and consign us to whatever eternity He chooses. We are all His by virtue of His blood sacrifice.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

And He didn't have to get permission from calvin or arminius.

Of ALL mankind of which He purchased and died for their sins some will be separated from Him forever, some will be in His presence forever. He bought us all to do "whatever hath pleased him"

So I repeat to all who will listen "Christ died for your sins".

HankD

Preach it Hank!

P.S. I’ve long understood that no self-respecting Calvinist would accept your views as qualifying to be one of them. Thanks for clarifying about the L (Limited Atonement). Figured you’d do so…

 

[HankD]

Preach it Hank!

P.S. I’ve long understood that no self-respecting Calvinist would accept your views as qualifying to be one of them. Thanks for clarifying about the L (Limited Atonement). Figured you’d do so…

I'm not at war with the calvinist brethren or those brethren of arminius.

We are at war with the evil one (or should we say that he is at war with us).

HankD.

 

[Benjamin]

I'm not at war with the calvinist brethren or those brethren of arminius.

We are at war with the evil one (or should we say that he is at war with us).

HankD.

I know you're not. Personally, my biggest objection ("war") is toward the message that "many" have no hope. I simply find Calvinism typically relaying that message in one way or another - as seen above. So admittedly I see an important battle against such:

(2Ti 4:2) Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

(2Ti 4:3) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

(2Ti 4:4) And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

(2Ti 4:5) But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

 

[Van]

The OP simply puts forth the mistaken doctrine of Calvinism without mentioning Calvinism.

No, Van..., I am about as far away from Calvinism as one can get. If our Lord created an endless universe and named each and every star therein..., I could lose my salvation after I once come to Him? Not hardly. Once saved - Always saved! To me, Calvinism is but a tool utilized as a guilt trip on unsuspecting people. No disrespect intended to those who believe that way but for me, Calvinism just isn't scriptural.

Just consider the recorded testimony of the one thief on the Cross. He admitted his guilt; admitted that Jesus was Lord; and asked Him to remember him. This poor boy got saved that day minutes before he died. I mean, this guy didn't even have the opportunity to walk an isle. Calvinism folks don't believe in "death bed" conversions..., from what I've been told.

In my book, salvation is that easily attained. No jumping pews; no moving to the Congo to become a missionary; no nothing. Just coming to know Jesus by accepting Him when He calls via the Holy Spirit through willing Christians allowing themselves to be used for His glory.

When Jesus died on that cross He died for "me". He died for "you" also but that's between "you" and Him. To think the Lord might have slippery fingers letting one perish after the fact is total nonsense.

1) Saying you are not a Calvinist does not alter the fact that the OP presents the mistaken doctrine of Calvinism.
2) Once saved, always saved is a sound doctrine shared by nearly all, if not all, Baptists, whether Calvinist or not.
3) Salvation is not based on meriting salvation via good works. Again, this view is shared by all or nearly all Baptists.
4) Calvinists do believe in death bed confessions, because if the person was individually chosen before creation, they will come to saving faith via Irresistible Grace. So they are wrong about the mechanism, but right about the fact that God can save us based on accepting our faith.
5) Your view appears to put forth the idea that if we sincerely trust in Christ we are automatically saved. You did not mention that God alone must either accept our faith, i.e. credit it as righteousness, or not. Thus you seem to accept "Easy Believism."
6) When Jesus died on the cross He became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, which includes you and me and everyone else. But unless we "receive" the reconciliation, i.e. God crediting our faith as righteousness and putting us spiritually in Christ, where we undergo the circumcision of Christ, we do not benefit from His death. We go instead to Hades and Gehenna.

 

[HAMel]

1) Saying you are not a Calvinist does not alter the fact that the OP presents the mistaken doctrine of Calvinism.

No..., no..., no... That might be your perception but that wasn't my "intent".

The "intent" was that Jesus died on the cross for "me". For "you" also but that's up to "you" to accept His calling. "You" have to personally accept His plan for yourself.

I know..., it rings a tone of nonsense but let it sink in for a bit. Jesus died for the entire sinful world but he died for "me" specfically. Accepting Him exclusively on His terms (absent the various doctrines floating around out there) is as simple as falling off a chair.

All the additional nonsense believers have added to the equation is nothing but nonsense at best and otherwise a waste of time when it comes to the basic tenants of Salvation and eternal security!

...I need to jump pews? walk the isle? wash my sins down the drain? attend church on Saturday? walk the streets by two's? handle snakes? confess to a priest behind a screen? No. The cross cleaned it all up very nicely.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No, the real sad part is that so many folks get all wrapped up in a "response" doctrine, to the point that everything they're preaching is self effort.

Christ, and His cross, become a side note. The whole message is "if YOU do this, or if YOU do that, then you can have eternal life"

It turns the gospel upside down, right into heresy.

And many genuine believers are preaching this self effort drivel, and deceiving millions. Why are there so many half-hearted "believers" in the church?

Because many aren't believers at all. Their faith is securely planted in what they're doing, not what Christ has done for us.


That's the funny thing about truth. You can get as technical as you want, and truth doesn't faint. Truth stands up to serious inquiry and scrutiny. And all the technicalities in the world do nothing to dent the armor of truth.

But as soon as you hear somebody start dismissing scrutiny over supposed "semantics", you know you've got error on your hands

:applause::thumbs:

 

[Van]

I can certainly agree that you did not intend to put forth Calvinism, since it appears Easy Believism is the doctrine you are advocating.

A better way to say it is Christ died for all mankind, including you and me. Once we receive that reconciliation provided by His death of the Cross, we are saved forever.

Now we would still disagree on how we receive the reconciliation, but at least you would not seem to be pushing Calvinism.

 

[HankD]

I have always had a quarrel with the phrase "easy believism".

On my own part believing in Jesus Christ is one of the easiest things I know how to do.

In fact, it is effortless and seems part of my very nature (of course, I wasn't always that way).

Besides, what is the alternative? "Difficult believism"?

HankD

 

[JamesL]

I have always had a quarrel with the phrase "easy believism".

On my own part believing in Jesus Christ is one of the easiest things I know how to do.

In fact, it is effortless and seems part of my very nature (of course, I wasn't always that way).

Besides, what is the alternative? "Difficult believism"?

HankD

Right on, Hank.

The alternative is a very difficult, arduous task. It's what I call the voodoo of you do.

If you commit, if you turn, if you muster sorrow, if you confess, if you, you, you, you.

It's not really faith in Christ at all

 

[HankD]

When we yield to accusing each other then we have fallen into the trap of the evil one. We are not his match.

But it is pre-dated by accepting the labels of men no mater how noble they seem to be in our own eyes. e.g. Calvin, Arminius.

We give the evil one a hook to latch onto and accuse us.

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

Even Paul did not want his name to supplant the name of Christ, neither should we ( I know that's not where any of us intended to go, but we were deceived by the father of lies as from the very beginning).

We have been stunted in growth and remain babes in Christ.

HankD

 

[HAMel]

What is "Easy Believism"? The opposite of "Hard Believism"?

...is this a new age term?

 

[Iconoclast]

HankD
Hello Hankd-
I posted that eph 1:11 did not support your erroneous position...because it does not...to which you reply-

So say you. ALL belong to the LORD.

Actually no Hank....so says the Apostle Paul by the Spirit, lets take a look;

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

This is not a description of all men Hank.....it is the elect believers being addressed. Yes all men belong to the Lord as he is the Creator and bought the field to obtain the treasure...he has bought the rights to all men ,and is completely sovereign in those He saves.....look at the red portions to see clearly...it the believers only...So Says Paul:thumbs:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

You have failed to observe these portions as you claim vs 11 is divorced from this context....We can see that in most of the verses you offer here...let's look

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Great verse Hank.....:thumbs:

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John defines the "whole world" in later verses:

NIV 1 John 5:19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

There are only two classes of people here : the children of God and NOT the children of God.

His blood is the propitiation for everyone's sins including the "NOT the children of God", we, they, are His to do with whatever He pleases and consign us to whatever eternity He chooses. We are all His by virtue of His blood sacrifice

.

here is your error all gift wrapped.....

It is God who is "propitiated" by the vindication of His holy and righteous character, whereby, through the provision He has made in the vicarious and expiatory sacrifice of Christ, He has so dealt with sin that He can show mercy to the believing sinner in the removal of his guilt and the remission of his sins.
B-2,Noun,2434,hilasmos>
akin to hileos ("merciful, propitious"), signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted." It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as "the propitiation," in 1 John 2:2; 4:10, signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His Death, is the Personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided. In the former passage He is described as "the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world."

The italicized addition in the AV, "the sins of," gives a wrong interpretation. What is indicated is that provision is made for the whole world, so that no one is, by Divine predetermination, excluded from the scope of God's mercy; the efficacy of the "propitiation," however, is made actual for those who believe. In 1 John 4:10, the fact that God "sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins," is shown to be the great expression of God's love toward man, and the reason why Christians should love one another. In the Sept., Lev. 25:9; Num. 5:8; 1 Chron. 28:20; Ps. 130:4; Ezek. 44:27; Amos 8:14.

So Hank.....while the "scope" is worldwide....Can you explain in your view-
1] How is Christ the propitiation for the goats at the White throne judgment?

How is God's wrath turned away from these goats ...exactly?

2] How exactly was Jesus the propitiation for those who never heard of Jesus...how was the wrath turned away?

3] How about those who lived prior to the cross....how was he the propitiation for their sins....how was the wrath turned away from them?

4] Paul said in Romans 1 that God's wrath is revealed from heaven....how so if Jesus is the propitiation for all men????:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

dude

well now...we exchange pleasantries in one post, and then you go on the offensive Dude..... Not to worry Dude...I saw you coming....Icon now shifts to defend against the sneaky attack by Dude:laugh:

The circus sideshow

We call it the gospel Dude....sorry you do not-

that some of you "elect" have tried to implement

Dude...are you declaring that you are non elect? Anyone who is "saved" is indeed elect of God. If that terminology offends you....you have a problem with God who teaches it all through the bible.

as God's will is not necessarily the fact.

Indeed it is a fact Dude....just because you never have grasped or taught it does not mean millions of others have not seen it.

Jesus died for everyone;

No...he clearly died a Covenant death for all the Father gave Him, no more , no less.....no matter how many times you say so.

anyone;

From our point of view....we are to preach to all men....anyone ...yes
Because we preach to all does NOT mean He died for all.

and all who realize that they have sinned, and that the only atonement for that sin is the blood Christ shed on the cross.

Yes...because they were elected to do so. If they were not elected they never would believe...that is not a difficult concept is it?

No one on this board can tell me that they KNOW who is going to be truly saved and who is going to hell!

Wrong Again DUDE......Jesus has told us already- ALL THE Father has Given Me Shall come to me......All the SHEEP, ALL the wheat, All the ELECT are going to heaven......ALL the others are going to Hell.

Jesus knows His sheep , not one of them will be lost. he came to save His Sheep.

The entire reason for the life of Jesus was wrapped up neatly in John 3:16. Just to appease ALL of you who dispute that Jesus died for everyone, here are numerous versions of John 3:16, and nowhere do I read or see that Jesus "died for the elect!"

it is a free country...you can remain willfully ignorant if you want to.....the one version you left out says this-

that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during

The family of God is not some exclusive country club folks?

Sure it is DUDE....you cannot get in without a wedding garment.

The only criterion that are required to be born-again into the family of God is that by faith, we believe.

Being born from above the sinner is passive in this...Archangel has posted on this many times...you know he has....if you do not believe it, it is on you

I firmly believe that God, and only God, can possibly know the heart of the "whosoever" or the "everyone's" that come to Him in faith and ask Jesus to save them;

The Spirit gives them a new heart....he has purposed to do that or no one would ever believe. That is why it is grace and mercy:thumbs:

fill them with His Spirit; and turn his or her life in a new direction! A direction that takes them off the wide road to hell, and places them on the Narrow Path, which leads to the Narrow Gate, which ultimately gives the whosoever and everyone's the right to enter eternity!

There is not one non elect person who will do this...ever:thumbs:

For any of you to presume that there is an elect group that goes to heaven is playing God!

To deny that God has an elect people is completely unbiblical. Anyone who denies that God has elected a multitude in Christ is denying the gospel itself.

It is no presumption to believe revealed truth. To deny biblical election is to be a false teacher.

No one on this board can tell me that they personally know who will and who will not enter eternity? I realize that some of you hold to an elect group, predestined to be saved

.

All Christians know there is an elect multitude. Look at what you are posting here????

.. but the awesome part of this truth is, none of us know just who is on that list!

We do not have to know who is on the list. We just need to understand that God knows them that are His. There is indeed a list....because God has one...That belongs to God. To deny God has elected a multitude is horrible.

I have never turned anyone away from the alter because I didn't believe they were part of the S-elect.

There is no Altar in the Nt church....Jesus is in heaven now-

10 we have an altar, of which to eat they have no authority who the tabernacle are serving,

11 for of those beasts whose blood is brought for sin into the holy places through the chief priest -- of these the bodies are burned without the camp.

12 Wherefore, also Jesus -- that he might sanctify through [his] own blood the people -- without the gate did suffer;

13 now, then, may we go forth unto him without the camp, his reproach bearing;

14 for we have not here an abiding city, but the coming one we seek;

 

[Iconoclast]

Benjamin

Well, then, I’ll commend YOU on being a consistent Calvinist in that at least YOU will openly admit that YOU believe the Gospel is a message of no hope for most.

Calvinists leave the results to God. He has declared he is saving a multitude.
We declare the truth to all men....even rebellious non cals
If people remain outside of Christ....there is no hope for them.....

Yeah, I get it, so IOWs you have this tricky little way of leaving out the part concerning your belief

There is nothing tricky here at all. What I believe , or do not believe does not change the truth or the presentation of the truth. I will speak and address whatever concern comes my way. We are not told to inflict our personal beliefs or speculations on anyone,[I will leave such carnal philosophy to you] but rather we are to be faithful to proclaim the whole counsel of God.:wavey:

that only the lucky pre-selected elect few

You still refuse to believe the scriptural testimony that it is an innumerable multitude that is being saved

actually have the ability to respond and believe in the truth. Unless, of course, they mock and scoff you then you’ll give it (the news, “that God has not planned to save everyone”) to them straight and lay it all on them, eh?

correct...see you remebered:laugh: I also know that Jesus did that , so it is okay to follow His example.....see-

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Yeah, we’ve got to the bottom line of your “good news” delivery before…no sense in rehashing that. Again, I get it, I see serious error in it, but I get it.

The word of God is a two edged sword B....sometimes it results in death, sometimes life...do you have trouble with Pauls words?
14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

Icon, just between you and me, it would seem more sincere if you’d try being more transparent by saying something like: “I can only know what the scriptures say according to the Calvinist philosophical systematic interpretations of them.”

When dealing with people face to face...it is primarily scripture only....the teaching I hold comes from the scripture as the final authority. That Cals worldwide see the same thing troubles you I suppose.:laugh:

Sorry, but regarding that statement, personally, I can only assume that you’ve been muddled into believing that your Calvinist’ presuppositional interpretations of scripture actually confirm your “inspired” 1689 LBC theological systematic views …while simultaneously believing you’re under the delusion that all the scriptures I could show you pertaining to a genuine offer of grace for belief in the truth, to ALL men, don’t actually mean what they say.

Of course you already know that I believe God’s promises to ALL are according to His true judgment of volitional creatures as per these Calvinism refuting scriptures:

(Deu 32:4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

ah yes,,,,the old deut 32 catch all ,verse that you can insert your ideas into:lol

 

[righteousdude2]

Icon .....

I hope you were pulled off the road when you rattled off all that gobbly-gook, as I'd hate to think of you driving that 18 wheeler down the Interstate with on hand on the wheel and the on the pad texting you little heart out! :smilewinkgrin:

Thanks for the lesson in spirit-I-conics. It was helpful, but I choose to remain "willfully ignorant" as you so eloquently pointed out. After all, they say that those who call another person ignorant have to be somewhat ignorant themselves, to understand what ignorance is, so they can confidently call another person ignorant! No one knows ignorance better than an ignorant person, even a willfully ignorant person! :laugh:

However, I hold firm to what I shared, just as I hold firm to being a spirit-filled Baptist. A new creature to some in the church, like you.

We have gone around the globe before on issues, like tongues, and while you put up some convincing material, I have to trust in the God, who has given me spiritual utterance within my spirit to understand the Scriptures, too, and what you say may be fine for you ... but I choose to stick with the explanation He gave me when it came to spiritual things!

I know you and I (and some others) march to a different beat ... but it will not keep you out of heaven any more than it will keep me from entering in! However, along with me, there is a ton of folks on this board, including you, who will be seriously enlightened once they get there and discover how far off base they were in trying to interpret doctrine and scripture. And some of these folks will be punished for standing so tall and proud on their beliefs with stiff-necked bravado, to the point that it actually drove people from the kingdom, or kept them from coming in the first place. Now if that happened, you might prove the elect thing here on earth, but find that God really meant ALL, and WHOSOEVER, and EVERYONE that come be saved, and preset number before the heavens and earth were formed and set in motion!

I don't want to be responsible for the blood of another, which is why I am not a die-hard when it comes to these doctrinal issues. You know, the issues that drive so many of you crazy to argue to death over? But if some of you are willing to die on the hill for what you think to be the truth, so be it. Just don't push down the throat of others to believe or be viewed as outcasts, heretics, and worse!

Just think about this Icon, maybe it will be you, who arrives in heaven and while facing judgement by Jesus, called a heretic, and docked a few gems for your finger ring? Not saying it will hapen, just sayin'! :flower:

In closing, brother .... your health and well being mean a lot to me, so please remember to pull over and respond, don't text and drive/if you want to be alive! :smilewinkgrin:

 

[HankD]

HankD
Hello Hankd-
I posted that eph 1:11 did not support your erroneous position...because it does not...to which you reply-



Actually no Hank....so says the Apostle Paul by the Spirit, lets take a look;

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

This is not a description of all men Hank.....it is the elect believers being addressed. Yes all men belong to the Lord as he is the Creator and bought the field to obtain the treasure...he has bought the rights to all men ,and is completely sovereign in those He saves.....look at the red portions to see clearly...it the believers only...So Says Paul:thumbs:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

You have failed to observe these portions as you claim vs 11 is divorced from this context....We can see that in most of the verses you offer here...let's look


Great verse Hank.....:thumbs:



.

here is your error all gift wrapped.....

It is God who is "propitiated" by the vindication of His holy and righteous character, whereby, through the provision He has made in the vicarious and expiatory sacrifice of Christ, He has so dealt with sin that He can show mercy to the believing sinner in the removal of his guilt and the remission of his sins.
B-2,Noun,2434,hilasmos>
akin to hileos ("merciful, propitious"), signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted." It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as "the propitiation," in 1 John 2:2; 4:10, signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His Death, is the Personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided. In the former passage He is described as "the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world."

The italicized addition in the AV, "the sins of," gives a wrong interpretation. What is indicated is that provision is made for the whole world, so that no one is, by Divine predetermination, excluded from the scope of God's mercy; the efficacy of the "propitiation," however, is made actual for those who believe. In 1 John 4:10, the fact that God "sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins," is shown to be the great expression of God's love toward man, and the reason why Christians should love one another. In the Sept., Lev. 25:9; Num. 5:8; 1 Chron. 28:20; Ps. 130:4; Ezek. 44:27; Amos 8:14.

So Hank.....while the "scope" is worldwide....Can you explain in your view-
1] How is Christ the propitiation for the goats at the White throne judgment?

How is God's wrath turned away from these goats ...exactly?

2] How exactly was Jesus the propitiation for those who never heard of Jesus...how was the wrath turned away?

3] How about those who lived prior to the cross....how was he the propitiation for their sins....how was the wrath turned away from them?

4] Paul said in Romans 1 that God's wrath is revealed from heaven....how so if Jesus is the propitiation for all men????:thumbs:

You are questioning God not me brother iconoclast.
If He wants to propitiate the sins of the whole world and then consign those without faith to a Godless eternity, well, that's His business, He does what He pleases without referring to our systematic theologies.

The Ephesians passage simply refers to His choice to show those with faith His mercy, which again He does not HAVE to but does so because of Christ's merit as the foundational reason.

Faith or not He does all the choosing. Whether faith or no, none of us (the seed of fallen Adam) deserve His mercy. It just so happens He chooses to show mercy to those of the faith.

BTW, many calvinists would disagree with one of your points in that they would teach "double predestination" that the lost are/were pro-actively chosen for damnation and not simply "passed by".

Take the last word brother, I am through.

HankD

 

[Van]

I have always had a quarrel with the phrase "easy believism".

And I have a quarrel with mistaken doctrine.

On my own part believing in Jesus Christ is one of the easiest things I know how to do.

You are speaking of an action you take, but your belief may be superficial and not wholehearted, and may not be credited as righteousness by God. See Matthew 13 and Romans 4.

In fact, it is effortless and seems part of my very nature (of course, I wasn't always that way).

Now you are speaking of your on-going belief in Christ. The topic is the belief through which you are saved.

Besides, what is the alternative? "Difficult believism"?
HankD

The alternative is accepting the biblical view. You do not automatically get saved when you put your faith in Christ. You get saved when and if God credits your faith as righteousness.

According to your view, why did the second and third soils of Matthew 13 not get saved when they put their faith in Christ?

 

[JamesL]

And I have a quarrel with mistaken doctrine.

You are speaking of an action you take, but your belief may be superficial and not wholehearted, and may not be credited as righteousness by God. See Matthew 13 and Romans 4.

Now you are speaking of your on-going belief in Christ. The topic is the belief through which you are saved.



The alternative is accepting the biblical view. You do not automatically get saved when you put your faith in Christ. You get saved when and if God credits your faith as righteousness.

According to your view, why did the second and third soils of Matthew 13 not get saved when they put their faith in Christ?

You say the alternative to easy believism is a biblical view, then spew out "put your faith in Christ" ???

Where's it found in the bible to "put your faith" anywhere?

Oh, and btw. The second and third soils received the word with joy, euphemism for believing the gospel. They were justified by faith