It's not faith alone. It's faith+sound doctrine. It's a pretty simple, logical statement.
I'm not the one twisting the plain meaning of things here...
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If one believes that baptisim is essential for salvation, is he damned
- Thread starter Stanedglass
- Start date
I'm not the one twisting the plain meaning of things here...
Yes, if you believe that you won't be saved if you don't get baptized or if you don't go out and evangelize, then you are damned. Salvation does not come from the works you do, but from faith alone.
No, it's not faith+sound doctine. It is faith placed in the right God.
Well if you believe that Christ alone saves, but do not personally trust Christ to save you, then yes, you are going to hell. Satan believes that Christ alone saves. That's why he was so adamant to destroy Christ's ministry and atonement.
Isn't it obvious that belief alone is not and never has been enough. Think about Muslims. they have faith, but are not saved. Think about athiests. They have faith, but are not saved.
"Faith alone" in historic orthodoxy has never implied the absence of right doctrine.
No problem there since I didn't. I think you simply either didn't think through your statement, or don't understand the historic doctrines, or perhaps both. In our interaction over the years, you seem disconnected from historical theology and orthodoxy on some issues so I don't know which it was.
I don't think there is any reading comprehension problem. You said: So you believe that not just faith, but also correct doctrine, is necessary for salvation. You therefore do not believe in faith alone being necessary for salvation. Does that mean that you likewise are damned? That's pure nonsense. It is a misunderstanding of the historically orthodox position of faith alone. Faith alone always included the proper object of faith. One could not believe that Jesus was Satan and still be saved. You had to believe right things about Jesus. It is faith alone. The contrast of faith alone is not faith plus right doctrine but faith plus works.
That's a better approach ... to ask rather than make false statements. But again, you contrast faith with right doctrine which is an extremely fallacious way to argue. It is a false dichotomy. One must believe right things in order to be saved.
Remember, Muslims, atheists, Hindus, and Buddhists all have faith, but none are going to heaven because their faith is wrongly placed. To believe wrong things is damning if you believe wrong things about fundamental doctrines.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Fair. So a person says I believe Christ will save me. If I will believe on him. Now. I don't change. I still drink, chew, and go with girls that do. Would I then be saved?
Only you and God know if you are saved. If you honestly meant it when you placed your faith in Christ, it doesn't matter what you do afterwards.
Every circumstance is different isn't it? Was the thief on the cross saved? How much of a change was there in his life? Where in the Bible does it say one must confess their sins to be saved? It doesn't. That in itself is a fallacy. No, one does not have to confess their sins in order to be saved. The Bible teaches no such thing.
The Bible does not say: Faith + obedience = salvation. Stick to what the Bible says. It says Faith alone in Christ alone = salvation. That inevitably will result in fruit which is obedience. Don't put the cart before the horse.
Then why not believe the Word of God, and not twist Scripture; it would be much easier for you. Here is what the Scripture says, and cannot be argued with:
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Now that is the damnable heresy.
:BangHead:
Why wouldn't you change? The Bible teaches that people who are in Christ are a new creation ... old things have passed away, new things have come.
When then Thomas, I guess we are all going to hell. Not a single one of us is perfect and all of us have sinned after salvation. So, If you think what I said is heresy, I'll see you in hell.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Sticking with the example. Because I don't have to. I have my belief. I believe Jesus died for my sins and he alone saves me. Since, I have my belief I good to go. Since, I'm good to go I've got no worries. Since, I have no worries I can indulge myself here and find eternal life afterwards. I kinda like that.
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Matt Wade,
You had written...
To which I replied...
"Now that is the damnable heresy."
To which you retorted...
You had written...
matt wade said:Originally Posted by matt wade
Only you and God know if you are saved. If you honestly meant it when you placed your faith in Christ, it doesn't matter what you do afterwards.
To which I replied...
"Now that is the damnable heresy."
To which you retorted...
Please explain how a denial of (or, rejecting as heresy) your first statement--that "it doesn't matter what you do afterward" (ie after accepting Christ)--logically leads to your second, that "we are all going to hell"?
I said, "If you honestly meant it when you placed your faith in Christ, it doesn't matter what you do afterwards."
You said, "Now that is the damnable heresy."
So, my response is that if it does matter what we do after accepting Christ, then we are all going to hell. Because if it does matter, none of us are good enough and we will all sin after accepting Christ.
You said, "Now that is the damnable heresy."
So, my response is that if it does matter what we do after accepting Christ, then we are all going to hell. Because if it does matter, none of us are good enough and we will all sin after accepting Christ.
Really?
Do you? Do you actually believe it if it doesn't change your life? Of course not.
But according to the Bible, this isn't saving faith.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Ah, now we get down to it. What pray tell is a saving faith? (BTW I'm not praying to you from my closet so as not to confuse)
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
You still haven't demonstrated logically how your second statement is necessitated by a denial of your first. In addition to that your first statement is unbiblical on the face of it. It does matter what we do, after we initially place our faith in Christ, in terms of our final destination.
Paul says it does:
"(God) 'will render to each one according to his deeds'; eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish on every soul who works what is evil..." (Romans 2:6-9)
He also says it in chapter 11 of the same epistle, when he warns the believing Gentiles, who were currently standing by faith (v 20), that they would be cut off like the unbelieving Jews if they did not continue in the goodness of God (v 22).
James says it matters as well:
"What does it profit brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? (2:14--This is a rhetorical question and the answer is "no")
"Thus also faith, by itself, if it does not have works is dead (ie can't save)" (2:17)
"You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith only." (James 2:24)
Peter also says it matters--he says in his 2nd Epistle that we must be "diligent to add to our faith virtue, knowledge, self-control, perseverence, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love" (1:5-7) in order to: (1) become neither barren nor unfruitful in our knowledge of Christ (v 8 ); (2) make our calling and election sure and never stumble (v 10); and (3) to have an entrance supplied to us into Christ's everlasting kingdom (v.11)
CHRIST Himself also says it matters:
"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation." (John 5:28-29)
He also says that any branch in HIM that doesn't abide in Him and bear fruit will be cut off from Him (John 15:1-6).
*So it looks like Christ, James, Peter, and Paul would all disagree with your alleged logical reasoning that somehow concludes that it doesn't matter what we do after we have placed our faith in Christ at some point in our lives.*
Saving faith is faith that saves. It is contrasted with false faith, empty faith, or vain faith in various places in the NT.
saturneptune
New Member
If it is not saving faith, it is not faith.