If one believes that baptisim is essential for salvation, is he damned

[Pastor Larry]

If it is not saving faith, it is not faith.

So you are saying that a Muslim does not believe in his religion? Of course he does. He has faith. The Bible is clear that there is a false faith, or an empty faith. Even an atheist has faith. He believes that God does not exist.

 

[Stanedglass]

If you believe that you must do something after placing your faith in Jesus, then you are not trusting his Him alone to save you. You are adding additional steps to salvation, and no you are not saved.

Will a saving faith in Jesus change your life and will the Holy Spirit come and dwell within your soul? Of course. Will those changes give the want to do God's work and follow him? Of course. But those things don't save you.

What???????

If Jesus tells you to believe, then you believe b/c you trust in him, If Jesus tells us to Repent, then we Repent b/c our faith is in him. If he tells us to be baptized then we get baptized b/c our faith is in him. If we refuse to obey Christ, then our faith is not in him!

 

[Stanedglass]

There's no reading comprehension issue. You are attempting to pervert and twist the Gospel message plain and simple.

Do you have to have correct doctrine to get saved? Well, certainly you have to have some correct primary beliefs. If you put your faith and trust in a "jesus" and you believe that "jesus" came to this earth and sinned, then would you be saved? Certainly not. If you place your faith in a "jesus", but don't believe that that "jesus" had the power to create the world, you, and everything in it, are you saved? Certainly not.

So, yes, you must place your faith in the correct Jesus to begin with. You must also place your full faith in Him and not believe that there is anything additional needed except for your faith in His Grace.

So what if i put my full faith in him but never confess my sins? Repentance is a part of salvation right? Wouldn't that be doing something else other than having faith?

 

[Stanedglass]

Damnation is not contingent upon a person being mistaken about doctrine. It's based on one's refusal to allow Christ to pay for one's sins.

Would you please elaborate?

 

[Stanedglass]

Yes, if you believe that you won't be saved if you don't get baptized or if you don't go out and evangelize, then you are damned. Salvation does not come from the works you do, but from faith alone.

The bible never said that if you believe and evangelize you will be saved...but it did say that if you believe and are baptized you shall be saved but he that believes not shall be damned!

The bible never said that you must evangelize and be born of the spirit to enter the Kingdom of God, but it did say you must be born of the water and the spirit to enter into the Kingdom of God.

The bible never said Repent and Evangalize for the remission of sins, but it did say Repent and be baptized everyone of you...

And on and on it goes.

 

[Stanedglass]

Only you and God know if you are saved. If you honestly meant it when you placed your faith in Christ, it doesn't matter what you do afterwards.

It doesn't matter what you do afterwards? WOW....tell me you don't really believe that!

 

[saturneptune]

So you are saying that a Muslim does not believe in his religion? Of course he does. He has faith. The Bible is clear that there is a false faith, or an empty faith. Even an atheist has faith. He believes that God does not exist.

That is believing there is no God. That is not faith. I do not recall Eph 2:8-9 using the term saving faith.

 

[Stanedglass]

Every circumstance is different isn't it? Was the thief on the cross saved? How much of a change was there in his life? Where in the Bible does it say one must confess their sins to be saved? It doesn't. That in itself is a fallacy. No, one does not have to confess their sins in order to be saved. The Bible teaches no such thing.

Sorry about that I stand corrected you are right! I have another confession scripture in my head and it does not have anything to do with Salvation! I think that's in the genaric sinners prayer somewhere, that may be where I got that!

The Bible does not say: Faith + obedience = salvation. Stick to what the Bible says. It says Faith alone in Christ alone = salvation. That inevitably will result in fruit which is obedience. Don't put the cart before the horse.

2 Tim 1:7-8...In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBEY not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

I guess knowing God would be considered a work by some! And then there's that dreaded word obey in there too.

Now we've really opened a can of worms b/c the bible now says we must have faith, we must know God, and we must obey the Gospel!

Again thats pretty plain scripture!

Then why not believe the Word of God, and not twist Scripture; it would be much easier for you. Here is what the Scripture says, and cannot be argued with

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

DHK I say this in the most Christian way possible (LOL Im hearing the voice of the preacher off of The Fighting Temptations movie when he said that) but people like me arn't twisting scripture and arn't throwing stones or casting judement, but we take the bible as a whole and not just one little scripture out of how many thousands and make it fit what we want believe.

Ephesians 2, glad you quoted that, Obedience doen't = works, Obedience = Faith!

Your the man though! I love you dude!

 

[Stanedglass]

Why wouldn't you change? The Bible teaches that people who are in Christ are a new creation ... old things have passed away, new things have come.

Amen Brother!

 

[Stanedglass]

When then Thomas, I guess we are all going to hell. Not a single one of us is perfect and all of us have sinned after salvation. So, If you think what I said is heresy, I'll see you in hell.

That's not what Thomas meant! But if you truely think it doesn't matter what you do after your initial salvation experience, you need to reconsider what the wrod of God is saying!

 

[Stanedglass]

Going to the Gym...will catch back up when I get back...Lord Bless! Great discussion by the way!

 

[Pastor Larry]

That is believing there is no God. That is not faith.

Um, belief is faith. Look it up. To say that one believes there is no God is to say that he has faith that there is no God. Faith is the noun form of the verb believe.

I do not recall Eph 2:8-9 using the term saving faith.

I don't either. So? Other passages clearly distinguish between saving faith and false faith or empty faith or dead faith.

 

[matt wade]

That's not what Thomas meant! But if you truely think it doesn't matter what you do after your initial salvation experience, you need to reconsider what the wrod of God is saying!

Of course it matters what you do after salvation, but the point I was making was that it doesn't affect your salvation. Of course, you and Thomas both know that's what I meant.

 

[Stanedglass]

Of course it matters what you do after salvation, but the point I was making was that it doesn't affect your salvation. Of course, you and Thomas both know that's what I meant.

How does it not affect your salvation?

Jhn 15:4-7 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.


Just for giggles I went and looked up the word Abide in the original translation and here's what I found!

Translation: menō
Abide:
1) to remain, abide
a) in reference to place
1) to sojourn, tarry
2) not to depart
a) to continue to be present
b) to be held, kept, continually
b) in reference to time
1) to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure
a) of persons, to survive, live
c) in reference to state or condition
1) to remain as one, not to become another or different
2) to wait for, await one

Strong's Number G3306 matches the Greek μένω (menō), which occurs 127 times in 105 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

In these verses it's used as "abide, remain, tarry, abode, remaining, dwell, continue, endure, etc.

What's facinating about this is that in every instance, It's a choice or action required of the person! It's the persons responsibility to Stay, to Endure, To remain, to tarry, to dwell.

So in short, it's up to us to remain in Christ. Our Actions after our initial Salvation experience will dictate whether we abide or not!

 

[Stanedglass]

Every circumstance is different isn't it? Was the thief on the cross saved? How much of a change was there in his life? Where in the Bible does it say one must confess their sins to be saved? It doesn't. That in itself is a fallacy. No, one does not have to confess their sins in order to be saved. The Bible teaches no such thing.

I remembered what I was referring to, it's not confessing your sins, its confessing that Jesus is Lord!

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved

 

[matt wade]

So in short, it's up to us to remain in Christ. Our Actions after our initial Salvation experience will dictate whether we abide or not!

You keep trying to work for your salvation. I'll just trust in Jesus to save me and keep me.

 

[Stanedglass]

You keep trying to work for your salvation. I'll just trust in Jesus to save me and keep me.

Well...you keep trusting and quit abiding and you might get cut off! Again, I say that in the most Christian way! After all I'm just repeating it!


What did Jesus mean? Did he mean something other than abiding? I'm sure someone here knows more than Jesus...LOL but seriously though what does abiding mean to you Matt?

 

[DHK]

2 Tim 1:7-8...In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBEY not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Obeying the gospel is to believe the gospel.
Rejecting the gospel is not to obey it.
There is no hint of any works here.
If I offer a gift to my daughter on her birthday she is not obligated to take it. If she receives it is not of works. It is a gift. She doesn't have to do a number of chores for it; pay money for it, mow the lawn, do the dishes, or shovel the snow. It is a free gift that she simply can receive by faith. And when she does that she receives it accepting it as an expression of my love for her. If she rejects it, it is not a work either; but it is a rejection of my expression of love for her. Now that is just a temporary gift. The rejection of God's gift of eternal life is a rejection of eternity itself.

I guess knowing God would be considered a work by some! And then there's that dreaded word obey in there too.

There is no work. Faith is not a work. We obey God by believing on the work of Christ. Christ has done all the work for us. Therefore salvation is not of works. One's faith must have the correct object, and hence doctrine. If the object of your faith is the the Muslim God--Allah, you will not reach heaven. So, yes knowledge is important. Who is the object of your faith? Is it Christ, who paid the penalty of your sins on the cross of Calvary, or is it some other god. Having a knowledge of who you trust in is a prerequisite to being saved. It is not what gets you saved. It is a red herring to this discussion. This discussion is not about world religions and cults. We are speaking about salvation within the realm of historic Christianity. If you don't know who God is, then you better start another thread.

Now we've really opened a can of worms b/c the bible now says we must have faith, we must know God, and we must obey the Gospel!

Are you able to define faith.
Are you able to define the God that you must put your faith in?
The God that you put your faith in (Christ) is the obedience that God requires you to do, and that is not a work.

DHK I say this in the most Christian way possible (LOL Im hearing the voice of the preacher off of The Fighting Temptations movie when he said that) but people like me arn't twisting scripture and arn't throwing stones or casting judement, but we take the bible as a whole and not just one little scripture out of how many thousands and make it fit what we want believe.

I take all Scripture and see it harmonized together. I am not the one with that problem. Here is what the Bible says:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--Do you believe that salvation is of grace?
If you do, then it is impossible for salvation to be of works.
Baptism is a work, a work of man. Man does it; man receives it. God has no part in baptism. It is only a command of God that man obeys after he is saved. It has no part in man's salvation. Salvation is solely by grace and not of works.

Romans 4:4-5 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--Salvation is granted to the one that does no works. Salvation is granted to the one who is justified by faith without works. The ungodly is justified by faith and faith alone, just as Abraham was. There are no works required in salvation.

Ephesians 2, glad you quoted that, Obedience doen't = works, Obedience = Faith!

Your the man though! I love you dude!

Obedience is the result of one's faith in Christ. It is the result, not the requirement.

 

[Stanedglass]

Obedience is the result of one's faith in Christ. It is the result, not the requirement.

So in other words Disobediance is the result of one's disbelief or vein faith in Christ.

If someone is not obedient do they have faith in Christ?

We are both saying the same thing here, just worded different! But let me ask you this now: How can Jesus become the author of our salvation if we don't obey him? It seems like a requirement here! What do you gain from Heb 5:9.

 

[DHK]

So in other words Disobediance is the result of one's disbelief or vein faith in Christ.

If someone is not obedient do they have faith in Christ?

Let's make it simple.
The thief on the cross put his faith in Christ.
Jesus said, "Today thou shalt be with me in paradise."
As far as we are concerned he was "saved," but had no chance to do any good works afterward, and certainly wasn't baptized.

The "faith" that he put in Christ was the only "obedience" that Christ required, yet was not a work. Faith is an intangible. It is not something that is measured, or at least accurately measured like one's weight.

The other thief continued to blaspheme Christ. It wouldn't be his bad works of blasphemy that would send him to Hell but his unbelief or rejection of Christ.
Belief or faith in Christ is the only requirement for salvation, for salvation is a gift of God.
Unbelief or rejection of that gift or of Christ is sure damnation.