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If one believes that baptisim is essential for salvation, is he damned

Darron Steele

New Member
Are you catholic? ...
Nope.

I attend a Disciples of Christ congregation, and am loyal to the cause of the conservative Disciples. I believe that Christians ought to follow Scripture's teachings on factiousness, accept Christians who disagree without dividing, should follow the Bible and the Bible alone, and the Bible alone precisely.

Catholicism does not teach these things. Catholicism places an extrabiblical Tradition above Scripture in practice, and insists that church unity can only exist when everyone joins them. I certainly do not wish to catalog my disagreements with Catholicism nor my problems with some things that go on in the Catholic organization; they are many and my list would probably be seized for an opportunity for Catholic bashing by some addicts.

I will suffice it to say that among all church groups in existence, it would be among the least likely to have me choose a home congregation from it. You will rarely if ever see me arguing in favor of a distinctive Catholic precept on this board -- I might explain it, but not advocate it.
I mean Pastor Larry is trying to support salvation from faith alone.
I agree with Pastor Larry, but did not agree with how he spoke to Matt Black. My concern was acknowledged by Pastor Larry: it was the `how' not the `what' and he handled it with class.
 
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Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Nope.

I attend a Disciples of Christ congregation, and am loyal to the cause of the conservative Disciples. I believe that Christians ought to follow Scripture's teachings on factiousness, accept Christians who disagree without dividing, believe Christians should follow the Bible and the Bible alone, and the Bible alone precisely.

Catholicism does not teach these things. Catholicism places an extrabiblical Tradition above Scripture in practice, and insists that church unity can only exist when everyone joins them. I certainly do not wish to catalog my disagreements with Catholicism nor my problems with some things that go on in the Catholic organization; they are many and my list would probably be seized for an opportunity for Catholic bashing by some addicts.

I will suffice it to say that among all church groups in existence, it would be among the least likely to have me choose a home congregation from it.

Doesn't church of christ throw extra biblical traditoin above scripture? I mean there is no commandment in scripture about one cup verses multiple cups, Musical instruments are very much in use in worship in the Jewish temple note not only in scripture but also in the Qumran find we see it. Jesus having been a Jew would have participated to fulfill the requirements, It claims as do the Catholics that they have their origin from AD 33, also like the catholics they are exclusionary, they also believe in baptismal regeneration, they have a deny the Holy Spirit (which is clearly evidenced in scripture that you claim to follow). And can only marginally be thought to believe in the Trinity which excludes it from all other orthodox christianity and by this I don't mean the classical churches but those as well as main protestants denominations to include baptist. Huh. Sounds like there are a lot of similarities with Catholics.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
So what?

Are you suggesting that I should be more open to joining the Roman Catholic Church?

What exactly are you getting at?

I'm just saying you sound Catholic. What are you saying? You trying to get me to join the Catholic Church?
What exactly are you getting at? As Shakespear said "I do think thou doest protest too much."
 

Darron Steele

New Member
I'm just saying you sound Catholic. What are you saying? You trying to get me to join the Catholic Church?
What exactly are you getting at? As Shakespear said "I do think thou doest protest too much."
If you want to convince anyone I am Catholic, you will have a `hard row to hoe.'

Have a good day Thinkingstuff.
 

RAdam

New Member
holding the opinion that faith a total free gift of God does not require anything on our part to be "done" in order for it to be in effect. Because God has already sufficiently completed anything required for salvation. We just need to trust and accept God's gift. QUOTE]

Gotta love the irony of stating that God has done everything required for salvation and then immediately follow that statement with a human condition. If God has done everything required for salvation, then by logic how can anything be required on our part. If something is required on our part, then logically God hasn't done everything required for salvation, but instead has left something for us to do.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
holding the opinion that faith a total free gift of God does not require anything on our part to be "done" in order for it to be in effect. Because God has already sufficiently completed anything required for salvation. We just need to trust and accept God's gift. QUOTE]

Gotta love the irony of stating that God has done everything required for salvation and then immediately follow that statement with a human condition. If God has done everything required for salvation, then by logic how can anything be required on our part. If something is required on our part, then logically God hasn't done everything required for salvation, but instead has left something for us to do.

Thats only because you being a little narrow sited. God give man the faith to believe. Man could not believe save that God gave him the ability to do it. So even on that there is no effort on mans part. You're seeing from the aspect that man accepts Jesus. But from God's point of view he's given that man the ability to believe. So everything is entirely reliant on God.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
So am I damned for believing that baptism is essential for salvation? Yes or NO?
Salvation is by faith and faith alone. If you are putting your faith in baptism then there is no way one can enter into heaven. Faith alone in Christ alone is the only way to obtain salvation.

Everywhere throughout the NT (and even the OT) the words of Jesus and the Apostles are clear:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
--Note that Jesus said "I am the way," not that baptism is the way. He is the only way. There is no other way but him. If you throw baptism into the mix you have created another gospel, and we all know what Paul says about that in Galatians 1:6-9.

The Gospel is clearly spelled out in 1Cor.15:1-4

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


The gospel, by which you are saved: the death, the burial, and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. There is no baptism in here. This is as simple as it gets. The atoning work of Christ was done through the death of Christ. It was demonstrated completed by his resurrection.

A rabbi was studying Christianity. He found that its claims were true and was converted. He wrote the words to the Hymn, "I serve a risen Saviour, he's in the world today..." exclaiming "Who can serve a dead Messiah!

He put his faith in Christ alone; baptism had nothing to do with it.
Baptism is a work. We are saved by faith, not of works.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Thats only because you being a little narrow sited. God give man the faith to believe.
God does not give man faith to believe. The gift of faith is a spiritual gift just like any other spiritual gift. God does not give spiritual gifts to unsaved people. This is a fallacy. Man may choose by his own faith to believe in Allah or to believe in Christ. Will God give him the faith to believe in Allah? No! Then, neither will he give him the faith to believe in Christ. It is man that must choose of his own free will. God will not coerce a person to believe in Christ.
 

RAdam

New Member
Thats only because you being a little narrow sited. God give man the faith to believe. Man could not believe save that God gave him the ability to do it. So even on that there is no effort on mans part. You're seeing from the aspect that man accepts Jesus. But from God's point of view he's given that man the ability to believe. So everything is entirely reliant on God.

I have two questions. Where does God give man the faith to believe, in Christ or outside of Christ? And who does He give the faith to believe, the saved or the unsaved?
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
I have two questions. Where does God give man the faith to believe, in Christ or outside of Christ? And who does He give the faith to believe, the saved or the unsaved?

Your second question is the most pertinent to the discussion. Which really is does God grant faith only to the Elect or to all? Then the saved are so from before their creation. If the later then all they must do is enact the gift already established or to reject it. Either way is seen to be the working of God rather than men. Your first queston is always in Christ. But as Christ is homoosious with the father that also is from the begining of all creation. "in him do all things consist and have their being."
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I have two questions. Where does God give man the faith to believe, in Christ or outside of Christ? And who does He give the faith to believe, the saved or the unsaved?
God does not give an unsaved man faith to believe in Christ. That is a choice that is left up to the individual himself.
After the disciples were saved or believed that Christ was the Messiah, they asked him: "Lord increase our faith." Yet Christ answered them, "I say unto you if you have faith as a grain of a mustard seed..." He was simply saying to believe, have confidence in me. Faith comes by developing a relationship with Christ. The more we get to know Christ the more confidence or faith we will be able to put in him. That of course involves studying His Word. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. We learn about Christ through His Word.

God does not give faith to the unsaved.
 

RAdam

New Member
If He gives us faith in Christ (which is correct according to Ephesians 1:3) then one must needs be in Christ before one is given faith. Thus, only the elect are given faith. To say that the non-elect are in Christ is a violation of scripture. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus..."

When is it given them? Well, faith is fruit of the Spirit. One has not faith until one has the Spirit dwelling in him/her. When God borns you of His Spirit, He gives you the faith to believe. Thus scripture says that he that believeth hath everlasting life.
 

Darron Steele

New Member
So am I damned for believing that baptism is essential for salvation? Yes or NO?

THen I would like to hear the passage that proves that it is not essential. ....
Answer to "am I ___ for believing that baptism is essential for salvation": "NO" if you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

If you believe on Him, your wrongness about baptism will not be enough to revoke the salvation which Scripture assures us of.
  • Acts 16:31b “Believe on the Lord Jesus|, and you will be saved” (ASV|NASB).
Not `might be saved' -- "will be saved."
  • John 3:16-8a “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to |condemn| the world; but that the world should be saved through him. |Whoever| believeth on him is not |condemned|” (ASV with |TNIV|).”
  • Acts 10:43 says "everyone that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV).
As long as you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you will be saved.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
If He gives us faith in Christ (which is correct according to Ephesians 1:3) then one must needs be in Christ before one is given faith. Thus, only the elect are given faith. To say that the non-elect are in Christ is a violation of scripture. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus..."

When is it given them? Well, faith is fruit of the Spirit. One has not faith until one has the Spirit dwelling in him/her. When God borns you of His Spirit, He gives you the faith to believe. Thus scripture says that he that believeth hath everlasting life.
I trust were saying the same thing and not speaking past each other. Eph.1:3 says nothing about the unbeliever having faith. And neither do you in your first paragraph. You also admit that it is a fruit of the Spirit, and therefore cannot be given by God to the unsaved. Thus we seem to agree. But your next statement seems confusing and contradictory to what you have said previously.

Regeneration happens at the same time as salvation. There are not two different processes as some Calvinists believe. Thus an unbeliever puts his faith in Christ, and is regenerated, converted, born of God, saved, and even sanctified all at the same time. It is not a faith that is given to him by God.
 

RAdam

New Member
Ephesians 1:3 says that the Father blesses us with all spiritual blessings in Christ. Faith is a spiritual blessing, thus it is given us in Christ.

Regeneration is one part of salvation, not the whole of salvation. Conversion and regeneration do not happen at the same time. Regeneration precedes conversion. One must have faith for conversion and one must be regenerated to have faith.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Ephesians 1:3 says that the Father blesses us with all spiritual blessings in Christ. Faith is a spiritual blessing, thus it is given us in Christ.

Regeneration is one part of salvation, not the whole of salvation. Conversion and regeneration do not happen at the same time. Regeneration precedes conversion. One must have faith for conversion and one must be regenerated to have faith.
This folks is Calvinism, and is a good reason why I am not a Calvinist.

Salvation is a one time event that happens once in a person's life. When I prayed and trusted Christ as my Saviour, Christ, by the power of his Holy Spirit came and dwelt within me. At that very moment I was born into His family, regenerated by Him, saved by the power of his blood, sanctified, justified, converted, passed from death unto life, given the gift of eternal life; my sins were eternally forgiven, once and for all. I am secure in the hand of Jesus. It all happened at that one event in history, at that moment in time.
There was not two-step process. Regeneration and conversion takes place at the same time, as does salvation. They cannot be separated.
 

Winman

Active Member
Salvation is a one time event that happens once in a person's life. When I prayed and trusted Christ as my Saviour, Christ, by the power of his Holy Spirit came and dwelt within me. At that very moment I was born into His family, regenerated by Him, saved by the power of his blood, sanctified, justified, converted, passed from death unto life, given the gift of eternal life; my sins were eternally forgiven, once and for all. I am secure in the hand of Jesus. It all happened at that one event in history, at that moment in time.
There was not two-step process. Regeneration and conversion takes place at the same time, as does salvation. They cannot be separated.

I am in agreement with you on this.

It is not faith that saves, it is Jesus himself in the person of the Holy Spirit that saves. When a man comes to Jesus by faith in his heart for forgiveness of his sins, at that moment he receives the Holy Spirit and is born again. The Holy Spirit is the supernatural power that regenerates you.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

If you truly believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that he died for your sins, then you will receive him as your saviour. This is believeing, this is depending on Jesus alone for salvation. When you do, God gives you the power (the Holy Spirit) and you are born into God's family.

We are baptized in obedience to Christ. Baptism is an outward profession to the world that you have believed on Christ. I have heard it compared to a wedding ring. You can be married and not wear a ring, and you are still married. But your wife may not be too happy about that. When you wear the ring, you are telling the world you are married and no longer available. And baptism is the same, it is telling the world that you have received Jesus Christ as your saviour. It is identifying yourself with Jesus.

I once heard a missionary from India speak. When a person in India accepts Christ, it is a life-changing event. Many times friends and family will completely shun a Christian. It is a very serious decision there. Christians there are very bold. They will march through the town so that all see, go down into the river and be baptized. It is a public profession of faith in Christ.

Receiving Jesus is very similar to getting married. Jesus is the husband, we are the bride. Now, if you do not think you have to change your life when you get married, you are in for lots of trouble. If on your honeymoon you go out with the boys like you used to do, the Mrs. ain't gonna be smiling when you get home. :mad:

Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. So, if Jesus has saved you from your sins, the very least we can do is show we love him back and obey his commandments.
 
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Stanedglass

New Member
Let's make it simple.
The thief on the cross put his faith in Christ.
Jesus said, "Today thou shalt be with me in paradise."
As far as we are concerned he was "saved," but had no chance to do any good works afterward, and certainly wasn't baptized.

The "faith" that he put in Christ was the only "obedience" that Christ required, yet was not a work. Faith is an intangible. It is not something that is measured, or at least accurately measured like one's weight.

The other thief continued to blaspheme Christ. It wouldn't be his bad works of blasphemy that would send him to Hell but his unbelief or rejection of Christ.
Belief or faith in Christ is the only requirement for salvation, for salvation is a gift of God.
Unbelief or rejection of that gift or of Christ is sure damnation.

I agree, the first thief was saved by grace! But the thief was still under the law at the time of his death!

Let me ask you this, Do you believe that Repentance is a part of the Salvation experience or do you just beleive that you have to believe without Repentance?

The theif on the cross was a special example of Gods Grace. Remember the parable of the Householder (Mat 20)?

For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man [that is] an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, [that] shall ye receive. So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them [their] hire, beginning from the last unto the first. And when they came that [were hired] about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. And when they had received [it], they murmured against the goodman of the house, Saying, These last have wrought [but] one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? Take [that] thine [is], and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Who am I to judge antoher? God can save anyone anyway he feels! But for us, who have heard the Word of God and know it are held with a much higher accountability! We've (Everyone who put's their trust in Christ) been laboring a little longer and we know a few more things. For a man to know to do good and do it not to him it is Sin (Jam 4:17).

Matt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Jesus told him to sell everything he had and follow him, but the rich man could not b/c he had many possissions. It wasn't that the Rich man did not believe in Jesus, (he did or he would not of asked him how) that kept him from salvation but it was his lack of obedience to Christ!

This is just speculation but I beleive that if the Thief on the cross would have continued to live, his obedience would have confirimed his faith in Christ!
 
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