If one believes that baptisim is essential for salvation, is he damned

[Stanedglass]

Obeying the gospel is to believe the gospel.
Rejecting the gospel is not to obey it.
There is no hint of any works here.
If I offer a gift to my daughter on her birthday she is not obligated to take it. If she receives it is not of works. It is a gift. She doesn't have to do a number of chores for it; pay money for it, mow the lawn, do the dishes, or shovel the snow. It is a free gift that she simply can receive by faith. And when she does that she receives it accepting it as an expression of my love for her. If she rejects it, it is not a work either; but it is a rejection of my expression of love for her. Now that is just a temporary gift. The rejection of God's gift of eternal life is a rejection of eternity itself.

But your daughter can take that free gift and throw it away if she wants after she received it!

There is no work. Faith is not a work. We obey God by believing on the work of Christ. Christ has done all the work for us. Therefore salvation is not of works. One's faith must have the correct object, and hence doctrine. If the object of your faith is the the Muslim God--Allah, you will not reach heaven. So, yes knowledge is important.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--Do you believe that salvation is of grace?
If you do, then it is impossible for salvation to be of works.
Baptism is a work, a work of man. Man does it; man receives it. God has no part in baptism. It is only a command of God that man obeys after he is saved. It has no part in man's salvation. Salvation is solely by grace and not of works.

I'm not quite so sure why everyone here interprets Obedience as works! If you are going to say that Obedience = Works and you say that we obey by believing than Believing = Works too! That's a contradiction. Believing is something we do! Does Christ believe for us? Can I not boast that I believe (Rom 6:7)?

Who is the object of your faith? Is it Christ, who paid the penalty of your sins on the cross of Calvary, or is it some other god. Having a knowledge of who you trust in is a prerequisite to being saved. It is not what gets you saved. It is a red herring to this discussion. This discussion is not about world religions and cults. We are speaking about salvation within the realm of historic Christianity. If you don't know who God is, then you better start another thread.

Are you able to define faith.
Are you able to define the God that you must put your faith in?
The God that you put your faith in (Christ) is the obedience that God requires you to do, and that is not a work.

Jesus is the object of my Faith! I beleive in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, I put my complete trust in him! Does it make me unsaved b/c I believe (whether you beleive it or not) that Christ said it's impairative that we need to Believe, Repent, and Be Baptized? I do those things b/c my complete trust in what he said! According to what I just said, Do you think I'm saved my good fellow?

Obedience is the result of one's faith in Christ. It is the result, not the requirement.

I agree! But what you are still saying is that if we are not obedient then we don't have faith!

I'm really trying to catch up and read all the post, so please bare with me my friend! I hope you like me sir, b/c I like you! Not being sarcastic!

 

[Stanedglass]

Jesus saves and Jesus can save folks mistaken about 'baptism saving'.

I'm not sure if you were being light on the subject, but that made me chuckle!

 

[Stanedglass]

No. If you trust in Jesus, then will you persevere. It's what people who are alive do.

Only the most obtuse and prejudicial reading could come up with anything remotely close to this conclusion. You (as I recall) seem to pride yourself on areas like historical theology, particular Continental theology, but comments like this one reveal that you have little to no understanding of the historical doctrine of faith alone. You confuse the nature of faith with the fruit of faith. Perhaps some here will let you get by with such bald misrepresentation of the issue, but I won't.

So what if the person who believed stop persevering, gives up? In John 15 Jesus mentioned what would happen when people stoped persevering! He said that they would be cut off.

And listen guys please dont get me wrong here. I'm not saying that if you mess up tonight you are cut off! I'm not sure when God allows us to be given over to a reprobate mind! As long as we continue to fall on our faces and continue to put our fatih in him. God's Grace is Sufficient!

 

[Stanedglass]

The gospel, by which you are saved: the death, the burial, and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. There is no baptism in here. This is as simple as it gets. The atoning work of Christ was done through the death of Christ. It was demonstrated completed by his resurrection.

Wow finally somthing besides arguments!

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection.

Baptism is in the gospel. It's the Burial part. If you want to be in the likeness of the resurrection!

 

[Stanedglass]

God does not give man faith to believe. The gift of faith is a spiritual gift just like any other spiritual gift. God does not give spiritual gifts to unsaved people. This is a fallacy. Man may choose by his own faith to believe in Allah or to believe in Christ. Will God give him the faith to believe in Allah? No! Then, neither will he give him the faith to believe in Christ. It is man that must choose of his own free will. God will not coerce a person to believe in Christ.

But if man is choosing it's got to be a work b/c it's something that man does! You said earlier "Baptism is a work, a work of man. Man does it; man receives it. God has no part in baptism. It is only a command of God that man obeys after he is saved. It has no part in man's salvation. Salvation is solely by grace and not of works.

Another Contradiction! Not calling you out, just trying to keep it real!

 

[Stanedglass]

Answer to "am I ___ for believing that baptism is essential for salvation": "NO" if you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

If you believe on Him, your wrongness about baptism will not be enough to revoke the salvation which Scripture assures us of.

• Acts 16:31b “Believe on the Lord Jesus|, and you will be saved” (ASV|NASB).

Not `might be saved' -- "will be saved."

And in Acts 16:33 they got baptized!

• John 3:16-8a “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to |condemn| the world; but that the world should be saved through him. |Whoever| believeth on him is not |condemned|” (ASV with |TNIV|).”

• 
  
  And a few verses before that it speaks about being born of the water and the spirit! (John 3:1-5). I guess we can debate that at a later point!
  
  
  

  Acts 10:43 says "everyone that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV).

As long as you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you will be saved.

And in Acts 10:48 Peter Commanded them to be baptized.

Nice try though!

 

[Stanedglass]

We are baptized in obedience to Christ. Baptism is an outward profession to the world that you have believed on Christ. I have heard it compared to a wedding ring. You can be married and not wear a ring, and you are still married. But your wife may not be too happy about that. When you wear the ring, you are telling the world you are married and no longer available. And baptism is the same, it is telling the world that you have received Jesus Christ as your saviour. It is identifying yourself with Jesus.

I once heard a missionary from India speak. When a person in India accepts Christ, it is a life-changing event. Many times friends and family will completely shun a Christian. It is a very serious decision there. Christians there are very bold. They will march through the town so that all see, go down into the river and be baptized. It is a public profession of faith in Christ.

Where in the bible does it say that getting baptized is a pubic profession of faith in Christ?

Sorry to call that one out but there is no bible for it!

John the Baptist disciples were rebaptized b/c they were baptized the first time for an outward profession of Faith to believe on Christ. (Acts 19)

Baptism is how we identify with Christ (Rom 6:4, Col 2:12), not how we express our faith to the world!

 

[Darron Steele]

So am I damned for believing that baptism is essential for salvation? Yes or NO?

THen I would like to hear the passage that proves that it is not essential. ....

Answer to "am I ___ for believing that baptism is essential for salvation": "NO" if you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

If you believe on Him, your wrongness about baptism will not be enough to revoke the salvation which Scripture assures us of.

• Acts 16:31b “Believe on the Lord Jesus|, and you will be saved” (ASV|NASB).

Not `might be saved' -- "will be saved."

• John 3:16-8a “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to |condemn| the world; but that the world should be saved through him. |Whoever| believeth on him is not |condemned|” (ASV with |TNIV|).”

• Acts 10:43 says "everyone that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV).

As long as you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you will be saved.

And in Acts 16:33 they got baptized!

And a few verses before that it speaks about being born of the water and the spirit! (John 3:1-5). I guess we can debate that at a later point!

And in Acts 10:48 Peter Commanded them to be baptized.

Nice try though!

Hi Stanedglass.

I am not sure what I made a "nice try" about. I hope you are not suggesting that I am trying to make God's Book appear to be teaching something it does not, but I think you were.

JSM17 asked a question, and I answered it. I answered it with relevant Scripture. It is too bad that for my being kind to your cohort in the Churches of Christ, you sent a veiled accusation. While unfortunate, I am not really surprised.

I think it is off-topic that you brought up John 3:1-5; I guess you replace "water" with "baptism" in the text. Obsessions with water baptism aside, not every reference to water or washing in Scripture is a reference to water baptism.

As for mentioning that Acts 16:33 reports new converts were baptized, duh. How does this prove that no one will be saved without baptism?

Is getting salvation the only motive you can imagine for being baptized? It is not a privilege? It was to me.

Glad you mentioned Acts 10:48, but I will go back one verse and do both.

"Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we? |Mandou, pois, que fossem batizados = He-commanded, therefore, that they-be baptized | in the name of Jesus Christ." (ASV with VRA and translation).​

He commanded that those present would baptize the new converts. Notice that he said "can anyone forbid the water" also translated "Can anyone withhold water" (ESV). His concern was more that people would withhold baptism from these new converts, implying that the new converts would desire it.

If you really feel that the only reason imaginable to be baptized is to keep oneself out of Hell, I am sorry that baptism seems so unpleasant to you. However, not one passage suggests that the new converts did not want to be baptized.

I realize that you are probably adamantly and solidly convinced that your view on `salvation by baptism' is what Scripture teaches, even if it is out of harmony with explicit statements of Scripture. I do not intend to argue this with you much because I do not have the time nor the interest to argue with someone who has decided that s/he will keep the viewpoint s/he has.

Nonetheless, your inferences that these converts were baptized to keep themselves out of Hell is not consistent with Scripture. It dishonors baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ when it is treated as an unwanted thing we would only do to keep ourselves out of Hell. Water baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ is a privilege.

 

[DHK]

I agree, the first thief was saved by grace! But the thief was still under the law at the time of his death!

And how does this make a difference?
Was grace involved?
Was faith involved?
Was Christ involved?

What more is needed? There is only one plan of salvation. God has no other plan. Take some other examples:

First, look at Lot:
2 Peter 2:7-8 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds)
The Lord declares that Lot was both just and righteous. He was a saved man. Did his actions demonstrate his saved life? How obedient was he? How much did he do in the way of good works?

Here are some of the things that he did do:
--He offered his virgin daughters to be abused all night by a mob of homosexuals.
--He sat in the gate as a judge of this wicked city known for its gross immorality. He had risen to a place of prominence.
--Two of his own children had married into this society.
--When commanded not only to go out, but to flee from this wicked city, he had to be dragged out by two angels. Even then he asked for grace to live closer than originally commanded by the angels.
--His wife could not bear leaving, and looked back longing for the city; thus she was instantly turned into a pillar of salt.
--He got drunk almost immediately after leaving the city.
--He then had immoral relations with his own daughters (incest), getting them pregnant and having two sons by this awful deed.

What good did Lot do? By today's standards no one would call him saved!! But God does call him saved. It is God that sees the heart, and not man.
Lot (as others) was not judged by his works, but rather by his faith. He was made just; made righteous because he had believed on God, that same God that he learned about from his uncle, Abraham. His belief in God is what made him a righteous man, not his works (obviously).

Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness sake. He was saved before he left Ur, not because he left Ur, or Haran, or went where God told him, or because he offered Isaac, or because of any work that he did. It was simply his faith that saved him.

Romans 4:2-3 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

And so we come to the thief who also was saved by grace through faith--the same way that Lot and Abraham were (who were before the Law).
It is the same way that Saul (Paul) was saved.
It is the same way that all men are saved today (by grace through faith).
In the OT Jeremiah made a mockery at those who thought that water had anything to do with salvation:

Jeremiah 2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.

Water (and soap) didn't wash away sins in Jeremiah's day, and still doesn't now. The plan of salvation hasn't changed. It is by faith and faith alone.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Stanedglass]

Hi Stanedglass.

I am not sure what I made a "nice try" about. I hope you are not suggesting that I am trying to make God's Book appear to be teaching something it does not, but I think you were.

Sorry about that I was being sarcastic! I know it's hard to see the other persons intentions on the internet. I meant abosolutly nothing by it so please forgive me if it came across that way!

JSM17 asked a question, and I answered it. I answered it with relevant Scripture. It is too bad that for my being kind to your cohort in the Churches of Christ, you sent a veiled accusation. While unfortunate, I am not really surprised.

You think Im a part of the Church of Christ? Why?

If you really feel that the only reason imaginable to be baptized is to keep oneself out of Hell, I am sorry that baptism seems so unpleasant to you. However, not one passage suggests that the new converts did not want to be baptized.

I realize that you are probably adamantly and solidly convinced that your view on `salvation by baptism' is what Scripture teaches, even if it is out of harmony with explicit statements of Scripture. I do not intend to argue this with you much because I do not have the time nor the interest to argue with someone who has decided that s/he will keep the viewpoint s/he has.

Nonetheless, your inferences that these converts were baptized to keep themselves out of Hell is not consistent with Scripture. It dishonors baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ when it is treated as an unwanted thing we would only do to keep ourselves out of Hell. Water baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ is a privilege.

You are misinterpreting what I am saying! When did I say that baptism was a burdon? It's an awesome experience.

I was wondering your point of View on Acts 19 and wanted to get your opinion, on what I previsously stated. You may have missed it b/c messed up on quoting your responce so it looked like a long post that verywell could have been skipped over. Here it is again!

We are baptized in obedience to Christ. Baptism is an outward profession to the world that you have believed on Christ. I have heard it compared to a wedding ring. You can be married and not wear a ring, and you are still married. But your wife may not be too happy about that. When you wear the ring, you are telling the world you are married and no longer available. And baptism is the same, it is telling the world that you have received Jesus Christ as your saviour. It is identifying yourself with Jesus.

I once heard a missionary from India speak. When a person in India accepts Christ, it is a life-changing event. Many times friends and family will completely shun a Christian. It is a very serious decision there. Christians there are very bold. They will march through the town so that all see, go down into the river and be baptized. It is a public profession of faith in Christ.

Where in the bible does it say that getting baptized is a pubic profession of faith in Christ?

Sorry to call that one out but there is no bible for it!

John the Baptist disciples were rebaptized b/c they were baptized the first time for an outward profession of Faith to believe on Christ. (Acts 19)

Baptism is how we identify with Christ (Rom 6:4, Col 2:12), not how we express our faith to the world!

 

[JSM17]

Darron Steele:

Water baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ is a privilege.

Water baptism is a command, which makes it essential for salvation.

It is for the remission of sins, I know we have been over Acts 2:38 many times and you feel that the English translations to not do a good job, but I think they do just fine, they rendered it just the way it ought to be. Just as well Acts 22:16 declares the same idea in regards to the command and purpose of baptism.


38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Pastor Larry]

So what if the person who believed stop persevering, gives up?

Then he reveals that he was not reconciled. Verses like Heb 3:12-14 and Col 1:22-23 clearly show that if one does not persevere it is because they were never reconciled to begin with.

 

[Johnv]

Water baptism is a command, which makes it essential for salvation.

Water baptism is a command, but is not a prerequisite for salvation. The is evidenced by the numerous biblical accounts of people accepting Christ without the benefit of, or prior to, water baptism.

Just think of all those people who accepted Christ as their Savior, but didn't get baptized until months, or sometimes years, later. Your assertion is that they are hellbound until they get dunked. That's inconistent with scripture.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Salvation is the divine gift through which men and women are delivered from sin and death, united to Christ, and brought into His eternal Kingdom.

Those who heard Peter's sermon on the Day of Pentecost asked what they must do to be saved. He answered, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).

Salvation begins with these three "steps":
1) repent
2) be baptized, and
3) receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

To repent means to change our mind about how we have been, turning from our sin and committing ourselves to Christ. To be baptized means to be born again by being joined into union with Christ. And to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit means to receive the Spirit who empowers us to enter a new life in Christ, be nurtured in the Church, and be conformed to God's image.

Salvation demands faith in Jesus Christ. People cannot save themselves by their own good works. Salvation is "faith working through love." It is an ongoing, lifelong process.

Salvation is past tense in that, through the death and Resurrection of Christ, we have been saved. It is present tense, for we must also be being saved by our active participation through faith in our union with Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. Salvation is also future tense, for we must yet be saved at His glorious Second Coming.

In XC
-

 

[Thinkingstuff]

God does not give man faith to believe. The gift of faith is a spiritual gift just like any other spiritual gift. God does not give spiritual gifts to unsaved people. This is a fallacy. Man may choose by his own faith to believe in Allah or to believe in Christ. Will God give him the faith to believe in Allah? No! Then, neither will he give him the faith to believe in Christ. It is man that must choose of his own free will. God will not coerce a person to believe in Christ.

You are entirely wrong on this matter DHK. Man on his own, will believe in anything that is not God (The capital G in God signifies the one God of the Bible not god as in a pantheon) to include other gods, which when it comes down to it, is the worship of self. For man to depart from his natural state of affairs (rebellion against God) requires the action of the Holy Spirit. Man cannot of his own conscience and ability come to acknowledge God apart from this. Hebrews 12:2

2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith,

Romans 12:3

in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

Calvins institutes

1. That man is so enslaved by the yoke of sin, that he cannot of his own nature aim at good either in wish or actual pursuit, has, I think, been sufficiently proved...They never would have been so inclined of their own accord. Their inclinations, therefore, were more overruled by God than regulated by themselves...We may also call their faith implicit, as being properly nothing else than a preparation for faith.

therefore faith in the God of the Bible is a Gift from God. God does indeed give man faith to believe in him.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

But if man is choosing it's got to be a work b/c it's something that man does! You said earlier "Baptism is a work, a work of man. Man does it; man receives it. God has no part in baptism. It is only a command of God that man obeys after he is saved. It has no part in man's salvation. Salvation is solely by grace and not of works.

Another Contradiction! Not calling you out, just trying to keep it real!

That wasn't quoted from me but from DHK. DHK was commenting on what I stated previously. I already stated consistently that God gives us the Faith to believe to begin with. This is in line with Irresistable Grace.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Faith is in one sense a gift from God, and in another, something that is our responsibility to exercise.

None of us can conjure up faith on our own. The Holy Ghost must precede any action on our part and must indeed convict us and supernaturally enable us to have faith, or else none of us could have it.

On the other hand, once supernaturally convicted and enabled by God's grace, our responsibility is to actually exercise this faith to the saving of our souls.

 

[Darron Steele]

Written to someone other than JSM17:

...
Is getting salvation the only motive you can imagine for being baptized? It is not a privilege? It was to me.

Glad you mentioned Acts 10:48, but I will go back one verse and do both.

"Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we? |Mandou, pois, que fossem batizados = He-commanded, therefore, that they-be baptized | in the name of Jesus Christ." (ASV with VRA and translation).​

He commanded that those present would baptize the new converts. Notice that he said "can anyone forbid the water" also translated "Can anyone withhold water" (ESV). His concern was more that people would withhold baptism from these new converts, implying that the new converts would desire it.

If you really feel that the only reason imaginable to be baptized is to keep oneself out of Hell, I am sorry that baptism seems so unpleasant to you. However, not one passage suggests that the new converts did not want to be baptized.
...
Nonetheless, your inferences that these converts were baptized to keep themselves out of Hell is not consistent with Scripture. It dishonors baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ when it is treated as an unwanted thing we would only do to keep ourselves out of Hell. Water baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ is a privilege.

Darron Steele:
Water baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ is a privilege.

Water baptism is a command, which makes it essential for salvation.

Hi JSM17: evidently you dispute that it is a privilege, but a command instead.

Sorry you feel that way.

Personally, I think it is both.

However, if you think that every command given to us is essential to salvation, you better be running through your New Testament with a pen and checking off every directive we are given. I guess if you miss one, you will not be saved.

By the way, I know of no one in the Churches of Christ who believe that every single command in the New Testament to us must be D-O-N-E to total and utter completion to secure salvation. Your view would be very radical if you really hold what you are suggesting.

All I have to say is that you better hope your salvation is not contingent on that. Those are a lot of directives.

What seems strange to me is that in the Bible, people were saved the same day they truly desired salvation. What you are suggesting would take a lot longer than that.

The directives we are given are to be followed because we are loyal to Jesus Christ. The idea that we ought to be dragging ourselves through living as Christians to get salvation for ourselves is not what I see in Scripture. We should do what Christians should do because we WANT to please the Lord. Doing what we should do as Christians ought to be done for the Lord, not for ourselves.

It is for the remission of sins, I know we have been over Acts 2:38 many times and you feel that the English translations to not do a good job, but I think they do just fine, they rendered it just the way it ought to be. Just as well Acts 22:16 declares the same idea in regards to the command and purpose of baptism.


38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Yeah, really cool passage, although it does not say `for unless ye are baptized, ye shall not receive remission of sins' -- and further, the text is

Πέτρος δὲ ἔφη πρὸς αὐτούς· μετανοήσατε, καὶ βαπτισθήτω ἕκαστος ὑμῶν ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν, καὶ λήψεσθε τὴν δωρεὰν τοῦ ῾Αγίου Πνεύματος

translated

"Pedro então lhes respondeu: Arrependei-vos, e cada um de vós seja batizado em nome de Jesus Cristo, para remissão de vossos pecados; e recebereis o dom do Espírito Santo" (VRA).​

We repent for the remission of sins, and have an obligation to be baptized when we repent. At Luke 24:47 Jesus Christ ordained "repentance for| remission of sins should be preached in his name" (NASB|KJV) and I do not think Peter disobeyed Him.

However, I know from experience that no matter how many ways your view is held to be out of harmony with Scripture, that you are going to continue to toe the Church of Christ party line.

 

[RAdam]

This folks is Calvinism, and is a good reason why I am not a Calvinist.

Salvation is a one time event that happens once in a person's life. When I prayed and trusted Christ as my Saviour, Christ, by the power of his Holy Spirit came and dwelt within me. At that very moment I was born into His family, regenerated by Him, saved by the power of his blood, sanctified, justified, converted, passed from death unto life, given the gift of eternal life; my sins were eternally forgiven, once and for all. I am secure in the hand of Jesus. It all happened at that one event in history, at that moment in time.
There was not two-step process. Regeneration and conversion takes place at the same time, as does salvation. They cannot be separated.

Regeneration gets you to heaven, conversion does not.

You say salvation is a one time event. If you substituted regeneration for salvation, you'd be correct. The problem is salvation is a blanket term in scripture. Sometimes it is referred to as being completed, sometimes as a present reality, and sometimes as a future event. That's because it covers a whole host of things, one of them being regeneration. Paul tells Timothy, "take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." Timothy was already regenerated, and thus in that sense saved to heaven. However, Paul tells him that in doing these things he would save himself and those that heard him. Obviously salvation is not a one time event, regeneration is.

 

[Johnv]

Regeneration gets you to heaven, conversion does not.

Presuming that to be a correct statement, it stands to reason, then, that regeneration is bestowed by the Holy Spirit, and not bestowed by the act of baptism.