If one believes that baptisim is essential for salvation, is he damned

[DHK]

Turning away from your sins!

If that were repentance then it would be a work. But that is not repentance.

But to get a little more formal here is the definition:
1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent

2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

Close. Repentance is a change of mind (not for better), with respect to the authority of God. It is not reformation as your definition implies, for then it would be a work.

It is a change of mind with respect to the authority of God. It is a 180 degree turn about, again, with respect to God's authority. An unsaved person stands in rebellion to God enjoying the fruits of the sin of this world. Then he comes face to face with the gospel and the claims of Christ. He must make a decision. By faith he either receives Christ or rejects Christ. If he receives Christ as His Saviour, at the same time he rejects the world and all of its attractions. He is accepting Christ as his Lord and Master, and is now willing to submit to His authority, not Satan's authority. By that one act of faith he has already repented. He has changed his mind as to which authority he will serve. Faith and repentance take place at the same time. You can't have one without the other. Neither are works.

 

[JSM17]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSM17
1. No that is not correct.

If it isn't correct, then whose other baptism do you accept? You just admitted in your statement below that Baptist doctrine is not biblical, and it cannot save. So, other than COC which baptism do you accept?

Quote:
2. Baptist doctrine is not biblical, faith alone does not save.

That is quite a statement to make seeing that it has been proven over and over to you that faith alone does save. This truth permeates the Bible: OT and NT. If there is one truth in Scripture that is so clearly taught that it cannot be missed it is this one: that man is saved by faith alone; and that has been clearly shown to you, in spite of your denial.

Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God. (Romans 5:1)

If it isn't correct, then whose other baptism do you accept? You just admitted in your statement below that Baptist doctrine is not biblical, and it cannot save. So, other than COC which baptism do you accept?

I accept biblical baptism

Baptism is…



Baptism is how we get into Christ.

Baptism is always accompanied by faith and repentance.

Baptism is God’s terms of surrender.

Baptism is our signal to God we have accepted Christ’s gospel.

Baptism is the external washing with water and the internal washing away of sin by God.

Baptism is “calling on the name of the Lord.”

Baptism is being unified with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection.

Baptism is “clothing” ourselves with Christ.

Baptism is “accepting” Christ (on His terms, not ours)

Baptism is when our sins are forgiven.

Baptism is when we receive the Holy Spirit.

Baptism is how and when we come into contact with the blood of Christ.

Baptism is when we are reborn.

Baptism is an act of faith.

Baptism is how we enter the kingdom of God.

Baptism is when we are added to the body of Christ (the church).

Baptism is when we exchange our life for His.

Baptism is when we die to ourselves and come alive in Christ.

Baptism is the washing of regeneration, and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

Baptism is the starting gun of a race of a new life.

Baptism is proclaiming in Christ the resurrection of the dead.

Baptism is when the old dies and the new arises. In this manner we become saved.

Baptism is the point in time when we become saved.

Baptism is when we stop living for ourselves and start living for Jesus.

Baptism is how and when we scripturally make a conscious decision to dedicate our lives to Christ.

Baptism is how we scripturally enter into a relationship with Christ.

Baptism is the gavel striking the bench proclaiming forgiveness of sins, the end of the old and the birth of the new.



BAPTISM:

is done FOR the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38)

is done to SAVE us (1Peter 3:21, Acts 2:40, Mark 16:16)

Is done to WASH AWAY OUR SINS (Acts 22:16)

is done to be REBORN to new life (John 3:5, Romans 6:3-6)

is done to CLOTHE ourselves with Christ (Gal 3:26-27)

is done so that GOD will RESURRECT us from death (Colossians 2:12, Romans 6:3-6)

is done as a REQUIRMENT to enter heaven (John 3:5, Mark 16:16)

is done to put us INTO CHRIST (Romans 6:3-6, Galatians 3:26-27, 1Corinthians 12:13)



When accompanied by faith and repentance, baptism (immersion) is how and when our sins are washed away. If it is not done for the purpose of washing our sins away (Acts 22:16), it is not the ONE baptism of the New Testament (Ephesians 4:4-5) and therefore the “baptism” is invalid. It needs to be done in the correct, Scriptural manner.



When Jesus died on the cross, He, who had no sin, paid the death penalty for our sins. Through baptism we are united, or joined with Christ in paying the death penalty for sin. We are baptized into His death, into the death penalty for sin. We, who are unable to return from death because we have sin, are joined to Christ—and since Christ is sinless and was victorious over death, we, now being united with Him through baptism, are made victorious being united with Christ in His resurrection.



Now if God allows us to participate in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (an event which occurred 2000 years ago), through baptism, it can truly be said we are saved through faith and God’s grace!



Baptism can be likened to the Israelites coming up out of the land of slavery, passing through the Red Sea and entering the Promised Land. Baptism can be likened to passing through the flood of Noah. Baptism is about leaving our old sinful, worldly ways behind and taking upon our shoulders the yoke of Christ. It is about lifestyle change and dying to ourselves and doing God’s will instead of ours. Our reason and purpose for living changes after baptism. Afterward is a new way of life. Baptism is about heart, faith, total commitment, surrender, self-denial, death, resurrection, repentance, and seeking God’s mercy through Jesus Christ and the work He did on that cross on that day of infamy 2000 years ago.

 

[JSM17]

That is quite a statement to make seeing that it has been proven over and over to you that faith alone does save. This truth permeates the Bible: OT and NT. If there is one truth in Scripture that is so clearly taught that it cannot be missed it is this one: that man is saved by faith alone; and that has been clearly shown to you, in spite of your denial.

Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God. (Romans 5:1)

Faith alone has not been proven.
The scriptures say that we are not saved by faith alone. Faith coupled by obedience saves. It has already been shown that faith apart from repentance is not saving therefore salvation cannot be by faith alone. Faith apart from confession cannot save. Faith apart from baptism cannot save. He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. He who disbelieves shall be damned. Jesus should have left out baptism from this statement according to you. Since you do not baptized un believers, non belief will condemn, but those who believe and are baptized shall be saved.

 

[Enow]

It amazes me that people claim allegance to Christ yet are not aware of the command to be baptized allowing weeks, months, and years to go by as if it was some secondary issue as it is insinuated by so many.

Acts 16:15

15 And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay." So she persuaded us.
NKJV

To obey the gospel includes being baptized and is being faithful to the Lord, again I do not see weeks, months, and years going by.

I do not know how you inferred that from verse 15 that the practise of water baptism is towards being faithful to the Lord. If she and her household were baptized, then why pose the question at all? Anyone can go through the motion of water baptism and not believe. It is obvious to me she was inferring towards anything else if she was unfaithful by so as to desire them to stay at her house to declare her willingness to be faithful to the Lord.

How do you explain Paul's lack of emphasis on water baptism?

1 Corinthians 1:12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Some would say that Paul needed his time freed up to preach the gospel as if the application of appointing deacons to the care of the widows in distress is applicable towards what he is saying here, but no. We all know that Peter preached the gospel to the Gentiles as they had received the Holy Ghost BEFORE water baptism thus they were saved, but Peter commanded them afterwards to be baptized for the sake of the believing Jews.

Once the Gospel is preached, there is plenty of time to perform water baptism to those that believe, but yet Paul has made it clear that he was not sent to baptize, but to preach the Gospel as Jesus saves....how?... by believing... that is the power of God: that is the response of a good conscience towards God: not the water baptism part.

Peter says the same thing.

1 Peter 3:21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

By His grace, I read that "not putting away of the filth of the flesh" as towards the "water" part. The answer of a good cosncience toward God is by believing in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Only those stuck on water baptism will read it to imply the necessity of water baptism, but that necessity isn't really there when it is Jesus Christ the Saviour that saves.

Ephesians 1:12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

May God cause the increase in your knowledge of Him so that your love may abound yet more and more.

 

[JSM17]

We all know that Peter preached the gospel to the Gentiles as they had received the Holy Ghost BEFORE water baptism thus they were saved,

Then according to your idea of salvation being represented by the Holy Spirit, how do you account for those in Acts 8 that believed the message and were baptized yet had not received the Holy Spirit, when were they saved? Due to your idea they would not have been saved until the Apostles came down and layed their hands on them to receive the H.S., yet they believed and were baptized already.

Acts 8:12-17

12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,

15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

 

[Enow]

Baptism is how we get into Christ.

No. By believing in Jesus Christ, we receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit by promise.

Galatians 3: 14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. ...26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Baptism is always accompanied by faith and repentance.

Baptism is God’s terms of surrender.

Baptism is our signal to God we have accepted Christ’s gospel.

But that repentence is surrender as Jesus calls the religious of the world to surrender from their efforts and will to rest in Him and all His promises to us.

Matthew 11:28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

John 6:28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

I see no water baptism mentioned here as a work of God for us to do.

Baptism is the external washing with water and the internal washing away of sin by God.

Again...

1 Peter 3:21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Baptism is “calling on the name of the Lord.”

Baptism is being unified with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection.

Baptism is “clothing” ourselves with Christ.

Baptism is “accepting” Christ (on His terms, not ours)

Then His terms is to believe in Him as calling on the name of the Lord is obviously not an endorsement towards water baptism. Your statements above would meant alot clearer when "Baptism..." is exchanged with "Salvation.."

Baptism is when our sins are forgiven.

Baptism is when we receive the Holy Spirit.

Salvation is when our sins are forgiven.

Salvation is when we have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Baptism is when we stop living for ourselves and start living for Jesus.

Baptism is how and when we scripturally make a conscious decision to dedicate our lives to Christ.

John 1: 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I testify that the Lord Jesus Christ has set me free from my commitment to follow Him so that I may rest in Him and all His promises to me to help me live the christian life as covered in His New Covenant to us. This is why it is written that the just shall live by faith in the Son of God as living the christian life is of the power of God as well as our witnessing for Him.

2 Corinthians 4: 5For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

2 Corinthians 3:4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Galatians 3:1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

Philippians 1: 6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:.... 9And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

If Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, then the race we run must be done by faith in the Son of God.

Hebrews 12: 1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Galatians 2:20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The difference between a religion and a relationship is how you bear witness of Jesus Christ... what YOU are doing FOR Jesus... seeking your glory... OR what JESUS is doing FOR you...seeking His glory. You cannot do both.

John 7: 18He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

1 Corinthians 1: 29That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

So baptism is not the Gospel. Jesus Christ is.

 

[Enow]

Then according to your idea of salvation being represented by the Holy Spirit, how do you account for those in Acts 8 that believed the message and were baptized yet had not received the Holy Spirit, when were they saved? Due to your idea they would not have been saved until the Apostles came down and layed their hands on them to receive the H.S., yet they believed and were baptized already.

Acts 8:12-17

12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,

15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

So you are inferring what Pentecostal has made an error over, is that the promise doesn't always come to those that believe.

#1. Luke went to the trouble of giving the background to the people of the area and their relations to Simon the scorceror, whom they have been bewitched by.

#2. The fact that Simon wasn't quite right in his coming to God is shown by his covetous desire to buy the means to lay hands on others to impart the gift of the Holy Spirit.

#3. It doesn't take a whole lot of imaginations that a people that is being delivered from unclean spirits in how they will react when the Holy Spirit came down on them like He did in Acts 2 or Acts 10. You really think God would scare them away from Jesus Christ after what they had been through? Can you imagine what anyone would think when they see Simon the scorceror among them? Accusations will fly.

It was a delicate situation as an area bewitched by the supernatural. There was to be no confusion that what was happening was NOT the result of Simon the scorceror messing around, pretending to be a believer, for he was a believer, but even his mind had to be set right in regards to the Holy Spirit due to his former practise of bewitching others.

In spite of the historical account of the early church in Acts, the letters to the churches plainly state the doctrine in how one is to receive the Holy Spirit: by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ in Whom we trust.

Ephesians 1:12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

Do note that your reference to Acts 8 also showed water baptism having taken place and yet they still had not received the Holy Ghost. So again, you have to ask Jesus for wisdom as to why Luke "bothered" to give the background to the area as well as of Simon the scorceror. This goes to show how God desired to draw those to His Son due to the traumas of supernatural affictions in the past so that they do not mistake the baptism of the Holy Spirit for anything else or the "happening" due to somebody else, thus leading to the laying on of hands so as to remove all doubts that Simon wasn't behind it. God was.

So Who baptizes with the Holy Ghost? :jesus:

Matthew 3:11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

 

[JSM17]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSM17
Baptism is how we get into Christ.

No. By believing in Jesus Christ, we receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit by promise.

Galatians 3: 14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. ...26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:26

26 Pántes gár huioí Theoú este diá teés písteoos en Christoó Ieesoú
(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright (c)1994 by Biblesoft)


It is through "THE" faith not our faith, notice the "TEES" before pisteoos, it is objective not subjective, check the Majority text for the definite article.

Gal 3:26-4:1
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

How do we becomes sons of God? "FOR AS MANY.... When do we receive the Spirit?

Gal 4:6

6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
NKJV

Because you are sons God sent the H.S.


As for Acts 10 and Acts 8 you never answer the question.

Then according to your idea of salvation being represented by the Holy Spirit, how do you account for those in Acts 8 that believed the message and were baptized yet had not received the Holy Spirit, when were they saved? Due to your idea they would not have been saved until the Apostles came down and layed their hands on them to receive the H.S., yet they believed and were baptized already.

You said that because Cornelius received the Spirit he was saved, so therfore you must conclude that those in Acts 8 who had believed and been baptized but had not receive the H.S were not saved until the Apotles came down and layed their hands on them.

 

[DHK]

I accept biblical baptism

That is your problem; you are ignorant of what Biblical baptism is. You only know of COC baptism which is an unscriptural baptism, part of "another gospel" which Paul calls accursed.

Baptism is…

I will ignore the list, for it goes totally against Scripture and shows that you have been indoctrinated into something contrary Scriptures. I suggest that you flee from the COC as Joseph fled from that wicked woman.

When accompanied by faith and repentance, baptism (immersion) is how and when our sins are washed away.

Since when do two atoms of Hydrogen combined with an atom of Oxygen wash away sins? Care to give that science lesson from the Bible? It is not there. What does baptism do? It gets you wet, and that is all. It has not power to wash away sin. That is a pagan superstition. The Hindus believe that. They jump into the "holy" waters of the Ganges River hoping that its "holy" waters will wash away their sins. Your belief is similar. Water washes away sin. Sorry, the Bible teaches no such thing. It is a foolish superstition.
Even Jeremiah made fun of it:

Jeremiah 2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.

If it is not done for the purpose of washing our sins away (Acts 22:16), it is not the ONE baptism of the New Testament (Ephesians 4:4-5) and therefore the “baptism” is invalid. It needs to be done in the correct, Scriptural manner.

No baptism washes away sin. Only the blood of Christ can wash away sin.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

When Jesus died on the cross, He, who had no sin, paid the death penalty for our sins.

That is true.

Through baptism we are united, or joined with Christ in paying the death penalty for sin.

A false statement. Baptism gets you wet. It has no such superstitious magical powers as you are stating here. Where do you get this stuff from?

We are baptized into His death, into the death penalty for sin.

So, if there are a bunch of crack addicts out here, I am supposed to immerse myself among them, join myself with their sin, because Christ died for their sin also. Baptism is immersion--immersion into the death penalty of sin. That is what you say. If I take your position literally I should find all the places of sin I can find and immerse myself in them?

Christ took the penalty of sin upon him so that I don't have to pay the penalty. Baptism is simply a picture of what Christ has already done. It is not a part of salvation. It is a picture of what happened at salvation.

We, who are unable to return from death because we have sin, are joined to Christ—and since Christ is sinless and was victorious over death, we, now being united with Him through baptism, are made victorious being united with Christ in His resurrection.

We are unable to return from the dead because we haven't died. Duh!
We are not united with Christ through a little bit of water. What magic do you have? H2O does nothing to a person but get him wet. When I was a Catholic Baptism was considered a sacrament through which we received special blessing. But now that I am saved I know that that is a heresy. Amazingly you believe very similar to the Catholics. But believe me, those baptismal drops of water can only make you wet. Water does not save; only the blood of Christ can do that.

Now if God allows us to participate in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (an event which occurred 2000 years ago), through baptism, it can truly be said we are saved through faith and God’s grace!

And those who preach "another gospel" are accursed! Be aware of what you say. Baptism gets you wet. It is a command from Christ. It is done in obedience to him. It has no saving power.

Baptism can be likened to the Israelites coming up out of the land of slavery, passing through the Red Sea and entering the Promised Land. Baptism can be likened to passing through the flood of Noah. Baptism is about leaving our old sinful, worldly ways behind and taking upon our shoulders the yoke of Christ. It is about lifestyle change and dying to ourselves and doing God’s will instead of ours. Our reason and purpose for living changes after baptism. Afterward is a new way of life. Baptism is about heart, faith, total commitment, surrender, self-denial, death, resurrection, repentance, and seeking God’s mercy through Jesus Christ and the work He did on that cross on that day of infamy 2000 years ago.

Anything "can be likened," but that doesn't make it true.
Your gospel is not the gospel of Christ, but another gospel.

 

[JSM17]

Anything "can be likened," but that doesn't make it true.
Your gospel is not the gospel of Christ, but another gospel.

Well then I guess we can at least agree that we both think that each other is not saved. That I think you teach a different Gospel and you think that I teach a different Gospel. But this has been evident from the beginning.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Then according to your idea of salvation being represented by the Holy Spirit, how do you account for those in Acts 8 that believed the message and were baptized yet had not received the Holy Spirit, when were they saved? Due to your idea they would not have been saved until the Apostles came down and layed their hands on them to receive the H.S., yet they believed and were baptized already.

Acts 8:12-17

12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,

15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

JSM17: We in the Orthodox Church refer to Acts 8:12-17 as an example of Chrismation.
1)Repent (Confession)
2)Be Baptized
3)Receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 8:12-17)

Today in the Orthodox Church immediately after baptism the person is Chrismated (anointed with oil) to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

It's our Tradition that once the Church grew, it became impossible for the Apostles to make it to every Church and lay hands on those that were baptized. Since the Apostles assigned Bishops to oversee the Church, the Apostles granted the authority of Chrismation to the Bishops to carry out. Then again, once the Church grew even more, it became too much for each Bishop to make it to every Church to perform Chrismation by laying on of hands. So the Bishops began to bless oil for each Church to have and gave the authority to each Priest to carry out this Sacrament and this is what we see today in the Orthodox Church. This example of the Apostles conveying authority to the Church Bishops is an example of Apostolic Succession.

I've even see this practice of atoning with oil in the Methodist Church, but not sure what it was used for.

Since I was a former Baptist, I was already water baptized, so when I became Orthodox, all I needed was to repent (Confession) and was Chrismated with oil.

So in the Church of Christ, does your Church practice some sort of "Chrismation" and if so, how is it performed?

In XC
-

 

[Pastor Larry]

I accept biblical baptism

This is genuinely disturbing. Here is a statement of affirmation, followed by a long list of biblical denials. How can you say you accept biblical baptism, and then follow that immediately with a long list of clearly false statement that both deny certain Scriptures and distort others?

Is this not a clear example of Peter's words that about those who being, "untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction" (2 Peter 3:16).

Folks, we are witnessing what happens when people reject the authority of God in Scripture for their own mind and thinking. It is a dangerous path to do down because it is so d*mning to the soul.

May God have mercy on those who trample on the blood of Christ by adding to it those things which Scripture clearly eliminates.

 

[Johnv]

Give us those accounts!

In the four Gospels, Jesus didn't baptize a single person.

 

[RAdam]

"Baptism is how we get into Christ."

Wrong. Baptism pictures what has already been done. Paul tells the Roman brethren in Romans 8 that they were not in the flesh but in the Spirit (the context telling us this is synonomous with being in Christ) seeing that the Spirit of God was dwelling in them. The distinguishing feature was the indwelling Holy Ghost given in regeneration, not whether one had been baptized or not.

 

[RAdam]

"Baptism is the external washing with water and the internal washing away of sin by God."

I guess old brother Peter was confused about what baptism does then because he said that baptism is "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God."

Water cannot wash away sin, only the blood of Jesus Christ can. Baptism is an outward picture of what God has already done to the sinner in regeneration. That's what Paul meant when he told Titus that "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost." Paul isn't discussing baptism through water but rather the vital application of the blood of Jesus Christ to the person by the Holy Ghost at regeneration.

 

[Enow]

Gal 3:26

26 Pántes gár huioí Theoú este diá teés písteoos en Christoó Ieesoú
(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright (c)1994 by Biblesoft)

It is through "THE" faith not our faith, notice the "TEES" before pisteoos, it is objective not subjective, check the Majority text for the definite article.

Sounds like you are ready to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel whole.

Gal 3:26-4:1
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

How do we becomes sons of God? "FOR AS MANY.... When do we receive the Spirit?

Gal 4:6

6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
NKJV

Because you are sons God sent the H.S.

Try keeping it in context, brother.

Galatians 3:6And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Reinterating a point may lead you to think otherwise in verse 6, but verse 7 clears up the point being made in verse 6.

As for Acts 10 and Acts 8 you never answer the question.

Then according to your idea of salvation being represented by the Holy Spirit, how do you account for those in Acts 8 that believed the message and were baptized yet had not received the Holy Spirit, when were they saved?

Reread that portion and post the verse when it was written that they were "saved". Believing Phillip about what?

Acts 8: 12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Due to your idea they would not have been saved until the Apostles came down and layed their hands on them to receive the H.S., yet they believed and were baptized already.

Romans 8:9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 John 5: 11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Again, Acts 8 was a delicate situation involving past traumatic experiences with the supernatural, and God did not want to scare people away from His Son since it is the Father that draws all men unto the Son.

You said that because Cornelius received the Spirit he was saved,

I do not remember mentioning Cornelius yet, but let us go onward...

so therfore you must conclude that those in Acts 8 who had believed and been baptized but had not receive the H.S were not saved until the Apotles came down and layed their hands on them.

Correct. Until they have received the spirit of adoption, they are none of His, and cannot be considered sealed as in saved.

Matthew 9: 17Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

And for anyone that are worried about how one receives that promise: your situation is not like the people of the area in Acts 8... heed this letter written plainly to the early church about how and when we receive that promise of the Holy Spirit to be saved.

Ephesians 1:12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

Jesus is the Saviour that baptizes with the Holy Spirit. His promise for all those that come to the Son and believe in the Son for life.

 

[DHK]

So others know what the "no's" are referring to:
No, I was not saved when I put my faith in trust in the finished work of Christ because I wasn't baptized until two years later.

No, I wasn't saved during those intervening years.

No, I wasn't saved even when I was saved.

No, I am not even saved right not as I post this post.
_______________________________________________

The above is JSM17 position. From it we may assume two things:
1. That he, as a COC member believes no baptism is valid except that of the COC. Am I correct?
2. That all on this board who are Baptists: moderators, administrators, and even the owner, are not saved. Am I correct.

Now to look again at Scripture:
We know that the Ethiopian eunuch was not baptized right away. It could have been, and most probably was hours after he trusted Christ as his Saviour before he was baptized. Look at the scenario. Philip jumps upon the chariot, and from the same passage that he is reading "preaches unto him Jesus." Shortly after he receives Christ as Saviour. They continue traveling through the desert. It is a long way, a long journey. Philip continues to disciple him. Then finally they come to a body of water. The eunuch, after having been taught by Philip, exclaims: Here is water; what is stopping me from being baptized.
Philip reassures him: There is nothing stopping you. As long as you believe with all your heart you may be baptized.
Once again the eunuch confesses to Philip that he believes, and then they are baptized. It is likely that hours have passed by now.

So how much time must pass before JSM17 declares a baptism invalid? or declares salvation not salvation because the baptism too far away from the confession in Christ?
two hours?
four hours?
one day?
three days?
one week?
two weeks?
one month?
two months?
one year?
two years?

Where does JSM17 arbitrarily draw his line that the Bible never draws before he plays the part of God and declares someone not saved. I am not saved (according to JSM17) because I allowed two years to elapse between my confession in Christ as Lord of my life and my baptism. It is the declaration of JSM17, acting on the behalf of God, that I am not saved. How many other papal proclamations will he make?

JSM17
You made this statement in another post:

When accompanied by faith and repentance, baptism (immersion) is how and when our sins are washed away.

You stated it that way because you said "it must be done in the correct scriptural order," which is what I assume you then stated above.
Thus if immersion is on the end of that order, I ask you again, how long a gap between repentance and immersion will cause one's salvation to be invalid: ten seconds, ten minutes, ten hours, ten days, ten weeks, ten months, ten years? What is the gap that makes one's salvation invalid. Why did you not directly answer to my post?

 

[JSM17]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSM17
Gal 3:26

26 Pántes gár huioí Theoú este diá teés písteoos en Christoó Ieesoú
(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright (c)1994 by Biblesoft)

It is through "THE" faith not our faith, notice the "TEES" before pisteoos, it is objective not subjective, check the Majority text for the definite article.

Sounds like you are ready to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel whole.

Nice try, why not actually look at the Greek and check it out for your self, its really elementry. Do you not see the definite article, or do you assume just because I showed it to you it cannot be true?

Gal 4:6

6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
NKJV

Because you are sons God sent the H.S.

Try keeping it in context, brother.

It is the context, it also shows when God sends His Spirit into our hearts, it is when we become sons.

You still have not dealt with Acts 8, when these people believed and were baptized but had not received the H.S. were they saved?

 

[JSM17]

JSM17: We in the Orthodox Church refer to Acts 8:12-17 as an example of Chrismation.
1)Repent (Confession)
2)Be Baptized
3)Receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 8:12-17)

I have not heard of "Chrismation"

But it would seem that in Acts 2:38 you have the same idea, only without the laying on of hands which I do not believe is still used today, the Spirit is given to those who become sons of God.

We believe that one must be immersed in water upon belief, repentance and confession.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Has anyone answered how the theif on the Cross was able to enter heaven with out baptism?

39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]"

43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."