If Regeneration is instantaneous, why do some grapple with faith for a long time?

[kyredneck]

Check your bible, it refutes the above types of statement:

Therefore Jesus statement stands - whoever believes.. will have eternal life/salvation

Justifcation and righteousness are both aspects of our eternal salvation

And he believed in Jehovah; and he reckoned it to him for righteousness. Gen 15:6

Allan, was it Abraham's belief that made him righteous, or did his belief show him to be righteous?

Was it an unrighteous man, that Jehovah called out of Mesopotamia years earlier, appeared to several times, and announced blessings upon? I think not.

Was it an unregenerate man that built an altar to Jehovah at Shechem years earlier? I think not.

Was it to a dead alien sinner that Melchizedek pronounced 'Blessed be Abram of God Most High' years earlier? I think not.

Abraham's faith showed him to be righteous; it did not make him righteous.

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3:21

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47

 

[RAdam]

It's amazing to me that people will call themselves baptists and then not read the ancient writings of the baptists. If you will read, for instance, the english baptists of the 17th and 18th century, you will see them tell you that same things kyredneck and I are writing here about justification. Samuel Richardson, who signed the 1689 London Confession, wrote a fantastic work on justification. John Gill's Body of Divinity has a great section on justification. William Kiffin wrote about it as well.

 

[kyredneck]

Yes, the Old Baptist knew that life precedes belief. If one is persuaded to believe in Christ, well, the Spirit has already done His work and made that person alive so that they could believe.

 

[Allan]

Yes, the Old Baptist knew that life precedes belief. If one is persuaded to believe in Christ, well, the Spirit has already done His work and made that person alive so that they could believe.

You guys REALLY don't know your baptist history do you.
There were two camps regarding historical baptists, general and particulars, and NEITHER camp held that one was saved and then believed (as RAdam has stated). That wasn't even considered an optional doctrinal belief to either group.

Neither of the two groups held the variation of the same above statement 'saved and then believed' of which is stated with the same meaning and intent - that one had eternal life and then believed.

 

[kyredneck]

You guys REALLY don't know your baptist history do you..

Historic Baptists and Regeneration
http://www.founders.org/journal/fj02/article2.html

There is much talk today by people from all corners of the Southern Baptist denomination calling for the need "to return to our historic Southern Baptist heritage." That is a wonderful desire and a prospect much to be longed for. In order to do this, however, one must go back before 1925 (the year the Cooperative Program was initiated). Indeed, one must go back before 1845 (the year the Southern Baptist Convention was established). One must go back at least to the first Baptist association in the South in order to understand and appreciate what actually is the "historic Baptist position" regarding the doctrine of regeneration. The Charleston Baptist Association in South Carolina was organized in October of 1751. This body of Baptists in the South adopted for its confession of faith The London Baptist Confession of 1689. Later, in 1813, the association commissioned the printing of a book which came to be known as The Charleston Manual, consisting of The London Baptist Confession of 1689, A Summary of Church Discipline, and The Baptist Catechism. This association was the womb out of which the Southern Baptist Convention was born. Turning to their catechism we find the following instruction on the doctrine of regeneration (or, effectual calling, as they spoke of it):

Q. 32. How are we made partakers of the redemption obtained by Christ?

A. We are made partakers of the redemption obtained by Christ, by the effectual application of it to us [o], by His Holy Spirit [p].


o. Galatians 4:5
p. Titus 3:5-6

Q. 33. How doth the Spirit apply to us the redemption obtained by Christ?


A. The Spirit applieth to us the redemption obtained by Christ, by working faith in us [q], and thereby uniting us to Christ [r], in our effectual calling .


q. Ephesians 2:8
r. Ephesians 3:17
s. I Corinthians 1:9

Q. 34. What is effectual calling?


A. Effectual calling is the work of God's Spirit [t], whereby convincing us of our sin and misery [w], enlightening our minds in the knowledge of Christ [x], and renewing our wills [y], he doth persuade and enable us to embrace Jesus Christ, revealed as the free gift of God to us, in the gospel [z].


t. II Timothy 1:9
u. John 16:8
w. Acts 2:37
x. Acts 26:18
y. Ezekiel 36:26
z. John 6:44-45

These brethren were followed by a great host of Southern Baptist statesmen who agreed wholeheartedly with the above statements concerning the nature of the new birth. A few excerpts will have to suffice.


James P. Boyce (first president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, in Louisville, Kentucky): "It is not strange, therefore, that they [i.e. regeneration and conversion] are often confounded. Yet, after all, the Scriptures also teach that regeneration is the work of God, changing the heart of man by his sovereign will, while conversion is that act of man turning towards God with the new inclination thus given to his heart" (Abstract of Systematic Theology, p. 374).


John A. Broadus (distinguished professor of New Testament and successor to Boyce at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary): "1. Q. What is meant by the word regeneration? A. Regeneration is God's causing a person to be born again. 9. Q. Does faith come before the new birth? A. No, it is the new heart that truly repents and believes" (taken from Broadus' A Catechism of Bible Teaching, reprinted in A Baptist Treasury, pp. 67-68).


John L. Dagg (first writing Southern Baptist theologian; president of Mercer University in Georgia): "In our natural state we are totally depraved. No inclination to holiness exists in the carnal heart; and no holy act can be performed, or service to God rendered, until the heart is changed. This change, it is the office of the Holy Spirit to effect. . . . But, in his own time and manner, God, the Holy Spirit, makes the word effectual in producing a new affection in the soul: and, when the first movement of love to God exists, the first throb of spiritual life commences" (A Manual of Theology, pp. 277, 279).


B. H. Carroll (founder and first president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas): "The true scriptural position [concerning regeneration] is this: There is, first of all, a direct influence of the Holy Spirit on the passive spirit of the sinner, quickening him or making him sensitive to the preaching of the Word. In this the sinner is passive. But he is not a subject of the new birth without contrition, repentance and faith. In exercising these he is active. Yet even his contrition is but a response to the Spirit's conviction, and the exercise of his repentance is but a response to the Spirit's conviction, and the exercise of his repentance and faith are but responses to the antecedent spiritual graces of repentance and faith." Carroll goes on to state that "repentance and faith are fruits of regeneration" (An Interpretation of the English Bible, Volume 4, p. 287).


J. B. Tidwell (professor of Bible at Baylor University in Waco, Texas): "Regeneration is a change of the soul's affections from self to God--an act of God by which the governing disposition of the soul which was formerly sinful becomes holy, 2 Cor. 2:17--this making us new creatures." (Christian Teachings, p. 54)


W. T. Conner (professor of Systematic Theology at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary): "This change [i.e., regeneration] is one that is wrought in the moral nature of man by the Spirit of God. Nothing but divine power could produce the change. . . . God's power works this change. . . . The man who experiences regeneration knows as well as he knows daylight from darkness that he himself did not work the change." (The Gospel of Redemption, p. 189)


Many more could be added to this sampling of Southern Baptist worthies who have taught in times past on this subject with Biblical faithfulness and crystal clarity. Though dead, truly they yet speak.



Contemporary Baptist Statements
One might be led to believe that the excerpts cited above reflect the beliefs held only by Baptists of days gone by, and that beliefs such as these went into their tombs with them. Such is not the case, however. In Southern Baptist life today two documents hold a high place of prominence: The Abstract of Principles and The Baptist Faith and Message. The Abstract serves today as the guiding doctrinal statement at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, and the Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, North Carolina. Every professor who teaches at these institutions must sign with a clear conscience The Abstract of Principles, agreeing to teach in accordance with, and not contrary to, its doctrinal precepts. As recently as October 4, 1984, the entire faculty of Southern Seminary unanimously reaffirmed The Abstract. Among other wonderful Biblical truths, The Abstract teaches the following on regeneration:

"Regeneration is a change of heart, wrought by the Holy Spirit, who quickeneth the dead in trespasses and sins enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the Word of God, and renewing their whole nature, so that they love God and practice holiness. It is a work of God's free and special grace alone."

The Baptist Faith and Message is a statement of faith adapted from the New Hampshire Confession of Faith. The Baptist Faith and Message has been vigorously reaffirmed by messengers to recent meetings of the Southern Baptist Convention, and presently serves as the confession of faith of very many local churches in the Southern Baptist denomination. In addition to this, it is the guiding document concerning doctrinal matters (subservient to the Bible, of course) for several Southern Baptist institutions and agencies. The article on regeneration reads as follows:



"Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ."

Conclusion
The truth concerning the Bible doctrine of regeneration is the same today as it was when God the Holy Spirit taught it to the inspired writers of Holy Scriptures, and as it was understood by our Baptist forefathers who labored to the glory of God in the name of Jesus Christ within the confines of the Southern Baptist denomination. But then, that should not surprise us, because truth does not change. If the rank and file of Southern Baptists today do not embrace and impart the Bible doctrine of regeneration as set forth in this brief survey, then it must be either that they have not been taught or that they refuse to be taught.

Those who have not been taught need to be instructed. We must do all we can to teach this glorious truth to them for two reasons: 1) Their spiritual well-being depends upon a right understanding of this truth. 2) The task of mission and evangelism cannot truly advance apart from a proper understanding of this truth. Those, however, who refuse to be instructed in this way need to be identified as having forsaken the biblical and historic Southern Baptist understanding of this essential doctrine. Whether in the pulpit, the class room, the agency administrative office, or the trustee board room, it must be acknowledged that there has been a violation of doctrinal integrity when men (and/or women) teach an aberration of this vital subject concerning the new birth.


May our gracious God give to us a recovery of the glorious doctrine of regeneration, and may He then be pleased to teach us many divine object lessons by magnifying his grace in the salvation of a multitude of poor sinners.

 

[Allan]

Allan, was it Abraham's belief that made him righteous, or did his belief show him to be righteous?

It was 'imputed' to him AFTER he believed. Thus the fact is, his faith did not 'show' him to be already righteous. Please read the passage again in Rom that I gave you.

Was it an unrighteous man, that Jehovah called out of Mesopotamia years earlier, appeared to several times, and announced blessings upon? I think not.

Yes, it was an unrighteous man that God called out of Mesopotamia. (Rom 4 establishes this fact), everything after that Everything after that shows his life both through and by faith - saved.

Abraham's faith showed him to be righteous; it did not make him righteous.

Then you are blatently ignoring the scriptures which state the righteousness he had was imputed/imparted to him BY FAITH.

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3:21

Of course. The only way to walk in the light/CHrist is the first believe in that light/CHrist and we will do those truths of the light by faith because it is through faith.

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47[/QUOTE]
You are completely wrong in your understanding of the passage here.
It DOES NOT mean (in Greek or English) that the reason we believe is because we 'already' possess eternal life. I would encourage you to study these out MUCH more because you are shredding the text for a proof-text.

 

[Allan]

Historic Baptists and Regeneration
http://www.founders.org/journal/fj02/article2.html

Historic baptist were made up of two groups, the Generals Baptists and the Particular Baptists. And the historical fact is that the General baptists preceded the Particulars even if only by a few decades. The Particular Baptists did not speak nor have they ever spoke for the whole of the Baptists.

There is much talk today by people from all corners of the Southern Baptist denomination calling for the need "to return to our historic Southern Baptist heritage."

Yes, and even that is a misnomer since not all of the original groups that made up the Southern Baptists were Reformed but there was included amoung them (though small in number they were) non-reformed baptists. So to return to our roots would really mean to stop letting differences on non-essentials stop removing our unity and 'real' love (not in words only) for the brethren and working together for the Kingdoms glory.

That is a wonderful desire and a prospect much to be longed for. In order to do this, however, one must go back before 1925 (the year the Cooperative Program was initiated). Indeed, one must go back before 1845 (the year the Southern Baptist Convention was established).

Anyone who thinks Southern Baptists constitutes the historic baptists are, without question, ignorant of baptist church history.

One must go back at least to the first Baptist association in the South in order to understand and appreciate what actually is the "historic Baptist position" regarding the doctrine of regeneration.

Your view of regeneration and the Reformed as well as the Calvinistic view is COMPLETELY different. It's is like comparing apples to rocks.
Their view of regeneration is also somewhat varied between camps though it still maintians it's intent. Regeneration in THEIR view brings a person INTO eternal life by faith. - IOW - they hold one only receives eternal life after one believes, not prior to it and thus regeneration to them is not/was not salvation nor was it to understood as eternal life.

Your view (as I understand it - at least it is RAdams view) states that regernation IS eternal life and that when one receives eternal life the person will believe. THis view is contrary to the historical baptist (reformed or otherwise) position and is even contrary to the historical churches postition - ever, that I can find.

 

[kyredneck]

..... Yes, it was an unrighteous man that God called out of Mesopotamia.

So Melchizedek was wrong in his description of him? 'Blessed be Abram of God Most High'.

(Rom 4 establishes this fact)

I don't see that. You'll have to point it out to me.

 

[Allan]

So Melchizedek was wrong in his description of him? 'Blessed be Abram of God Most High'.

apparently you miss the part where he was 'already' walking by faith, since he left Meso. to follow the Lord.

I don't see that. You'll have to point it out to me.

I can't show you anymore that the explicitness of the scripitures. It does not state Abram 'already' was righteous and therefore he believed. It states, with no equivocation, that Abraham believed and it was 'imputed' to him for righteousness.

 

[old regular]

The problem is that many people don't believe that man is totally dead and has no ability to believe and repent unless they are quickened by the Spirit, Ephesians 2:1 "And you hath he quickened,who were dead in trespasses and sins;" also Eph 2:5

 

[Robert Snow]

Allan, was it Abraham's belief that made him righteous, or did his belief show him to be righteous?

Was it an unrighteous man, that Jehovah called out of Mesopotamia years earlier, appeared to several times, and announced blessings upon? I think not.

Was it an unregenerate man that built an altar to Jehovah at Shechem years earlier? I think not.

Was it to a dead alien sinner that Melchizedek pronounced 'Blessed be Abram of God Most High' years earlier? I think not.

Abraham's faith showed him to be righteous; it did not make him righteous.

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3:21

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47

He that believes (places his faith in God's finished work) is saved, praise God!

 

[Robert Snow]

Yes, the Old Baptist knew that life precedes belief. If one is persuaded to believe in Christ, well, the Spirit has already done His work and made that person alive so that they could believe.

I don't believe this to be true at all. But if it is, it just shows that the "Old Baptist" were wrong. You see, I will take the bible over what any church says at any time in history.

 

[kyredneck]

..... he was 'already' walking by faith, since he left Meso. to follow the Lord.

Thank you. So are you recanting this statement?:

..... Yes, it was an unrighteous man that God called out of Mesopotamia.

 

[Allan]

Thank you. So are you recanting this statement?:

What in the world makes you come to such a conclusion?
If you wish to stay in your unbiblical belief system, that is your choice but scripture consistantly refutes your view.
Melchizedek didn't meet him prior to his leaving but AFTER he had already left in faith.
He was unrighteous when God called him, and in faith he choose to follow God, and thus we see scripture declare because of his faith he was imputed righteousness.

He was ungodly PRIOR to his walking in faith, period.
It is by faith we ARE justified, and it is by faith we are declared TO BE rightoues.

By these two alone, either we have scriptrue in error OR your view in error.
However I don't believe scripture is wrong since it unequivically states our justification and righteousness are 'By Faith'. ":thumbs:

 

[kyredneck]

What in the world makes you come to such a conclusion?....

I'd like to know how you reconcile these two statements:

..... he was 'already' walking by faith, since he left Meso. to follow the Lord.

..... Yes, it was an unrighteous man that God called out of Mesopotamia.

How could he be unrighteous and walking by faith at the same time? And don't blow me off. It IS a pertinent question.

 

[asterisktom]

Historic Baptists and Regeneration
http://www.founders.org/journal/fj02/article2.html

There is much talk today by people from all corners of the Southern Baptist denomination calling for the need "to return to our historic Southern Baptist heritage." That is a wonderful desire and a prospect much to be longed for. In order to do this, however, one must go back before 1925 (the year the Cooperative Program was initiated)

It was a pleasant discovery for me, when I became Reformed, to see that a great majority of early Baptists were basically of similar beliefs. This is from the 1646 London Baptist Confession of Faith:

XXII.

Faith is the gift of God, wrought in the hearts of the elect by the Spirit of God; by which faith they come to know and believe the truth of the Scriptures, and the excellency of them above all other writings, and all things in the world, as they hold forth the glory of God in His attributes, the excellency of Christ in His nature and offices, and of the power and fulness of the Spirit in its [His] workings and operations; and so are enabled to cast their souls upon His truth thus believed.

Eph. 2:8; John 6:29, 4:10; Phil. 1:29; Gal. 5:22; John 17:17; Heb. 4:11,12; John 6:63.

It is true that this belief was not unanimous among Baptists. However I just wish that I wasn't led to believe that the opposite camp (free-willers, arminians - whichever name fits) wasn't unanimous either. Like I have told my students several times, the history books are written by the winners.

And in this debate - at least until very recent times - the winning side was that side. This is the same reason that Christian textbooks make Luther's life ministry be mainly about faith, when he actually emphasized God's sovereignty and our inability much more. In many parts of his Bondage of the Will he out-Calvins Calvin!

BTW, getting back to Baptists, one set of books I look forward to getting is Tom Nettle's series on Baptist history. Has anyone here read it?

One last comment: I've seen several times the complaint that this whole discussion of sovereignty vs. freewill is a minor issue that shouldn't distract us from our Christian responsibilities. I would answer that that answer is part of the problem, and a clue to the real nature of the disagreement. For a firm believer of the centrality of the sovereignty of God this topic is inescapably foundational.

 

[pinoybaptist]

It was a pleasant discovery for me, when I became Reformed, to see that a great majority of early Baptists were basically of similar beliefs. This is from the 1646 London Baptist Confession of Faith:

don't mean to be the KJ here, but the "other side" is bound to come up with an earlier "confession" that is different.
always happens.

 

[kyredneck]

....always happens.

...heheh, Pinoy, what are you trying to say? 'What has been will be'? 'There's nothing new under the sun'? ......or sumthin like that?........

 

[asterisktom]

don't mean to be the KJ here, but the "other side" is bound to come up with an earlier "confession" that is different.
always happens.

Don't worry. You're not King James. I knew King James. And you're no King James.

Oh wait. You mean Kill Joy

 

[Allan]

I'd like to know how you reconcile these two statements:

How could he be unrighteous and walking by faith at the same time? And don't blow me off. It IS a pertinent question.

I never said he was unrighteousn AND walking by faith. Stop trying to 'interpret' what I say and just use simple conprehesion skills.

I stated he was an unrighteous man that God called out of Mesopotamia. Note that I highlighted 'called out' which is refering to God's calling - prior to his obedience. IOW - He was unrighteous prior to God's calling and his obedience. When he left (or as I stated 'since he left'), he did so by faith, and thus he was walking in obedience and no longer unrighteous.