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IF Rejecting Jesus is What Condems, Until one Hears Gospel, Are they saved?
- Thread starter JesusFan
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psalms109:31
Active Member
James 5:
20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
We are not the judge of those who have not heard the truth we are the messengers of the truth given to us through His word.
Romans 8
Life Through the Spirit
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[The Greek is singular; some manuscripts me] free from the law of sin and death.
I believe Jesus gives us the answer in these passages, He is the perfect judge who can judge the intent of our heart.
John 5:
24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
We are not the judge of those who have not heard the truth we are the messengers of the truth given to us through His word.
Romans 8
Life Through the Spirit
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[The Greek is singular; some manuscripts me] free from the law of sin and death.
I believe Jesus gives us the answer in these passages, He is the perfect judge who can judge the intent of our heart.
John 5:
24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
freeatlast
New Member
NO, they are lost other wise they would not need to be saved. :smilewinkgrin:
Tom Butler
New Member
Yes.
If they cannot be condemned for rejecting Jesus, of whom they have never heard, then what is the basis of their condemnation?
I believe Romans 2 provides the answer. They are a "law unto themselves." (v 14). They also have the law "written on their hearts." (v 15) By that, I believe it means that they have some type of moral code.
The problem, of course, is that, because of our sinful nature, they don't even keep their own moral code perfectly. That will the basis of their condemnation, and they will have no excuse.
freeatlast
New Member
Yes that is my understanding also.
Follow up question on this would be
can God elect out and save/regenerate sinners apart fro the Gospel?
or will He make sure somehow that His elect will get a chance to hear and respond?
Tom Butler
New Member
1. No
2. Yes
Our Primitive Baptist brothers believe that the answer to the first question is Yes.
Romans 1:16 is clear:
So the Gospel is to be preache dto all, but only produces saving faith respone in thos eit is intended to be effectual towards, IE the Elect of God?
psalms109:31
Active Member
Ezekiel 3:
18 When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for[Or in; also in verses 19 and 20] their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself.
20 “Again, when a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before them, they will die. Since you did not warn them, they will die for their sin. The righteous things that person did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous person not to sin and they do not sin, they will surely live because they took warning, and you will have saved yourself.”
1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
1 Corinthians 9:27
No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
James 5:20
remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
James 3:1
Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.
Hebrews 7:25
Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
Have we come to Jesus to save us or the words of men?
18 When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for[Or in; also in verses 19 and 20] their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself.
20 “Again, when a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before them, they will die. Since you did not warn them, they will die for their sin. The righteous things that person did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous person not to sin and they do not sin, they will surely live because they took warning, and you will have saved yourself.”
1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
1 Corinthians 9:27
No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
James 5:20
remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
James 3:1
Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.
Hebrews 7:25
Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
Have we come to Jesus to save us or the words of men?
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Tom Butler
New Member
As a DoG, I agree.
But whether we are DoGs or Non-Cals, we all agree that the gospel is to be taken to the ends of the earth, and preached wherever we can get an audience.
The message is the same. Repent of sin and trust Christ for salvation.
And we both agree that the Holy Spirit will be involved in the response.
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preacher4truth
Active Member
All the world outside of Christ are lost, enemies of God, hostile toward God, enemies in their minds, at enmity, none righteous, nor seeking, nor doing good, all are astray, in the kingdom of darkness & c.
This is Gods indictment and view upon and of lost men, from His Truth and perspective, no matter how lost man views himself, or what lost man thinks of his works, "goodness" &c before coming to Christ.
Gods Word stands and says otherwise whether one believes it or not, and no matter what others feel about themselves in their lost state; God has spoken. There is no salvation outside of Christ and this is through the Gospel.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Unbelief.
Scripture indicates than men are held accountable for their response to God's revelation. Both camps should agree on this point. The difference is regarding the doctrine of Total Inability and Effectuality.
Tom Butler
New Member
Unbelief in what?
I understand that creation suggests the existence of a Creator. I understand that natural law suggests the existence of a Lawgiver. But I can't see how creation and natural law suggest the existence of a Savior named Jesus, who died for sinners and rose from the dead to save sinners.
And I can't see how those who have never heard of the Christ can be held accountable for not believing in him. Even Paul asked, "How can they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without a preacher?" (Romans 10:15)
All people have some knowledge of God, although it can be very corrupt. We know that all of us are descended from Adam and Eve who knew the true God and passed this knowledge down. And we know we are descended from Noah and one of his three sons. Noah's sons all knew the truth of the true God.
But we do see that shortly after the flood and as people multiplied that the knowledge of God was corrupted. At the tower of Babel all languages were confused and men separated by language into all parts of the earth.
And science actually has evidence of this, it is known that hundreds of ancient civilizations had "flood myths". Some were very similar, almost identical to the true account in the Bible, while some were corrupted over time. Much of this is due to the account being orally passed down, and not written down.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html
So, all men have SOME knowledge of the true God. As a Christian, it is hard to know what someone living in a jungle knows or conceives of God. But as is shown, men have SOME knowledge. So, I believe God in compassion knows what a man knows and holds him accountable accordingly.
Jesus did show that men are held accountable for what they know.
Lk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
I believe the scriptures also show that all men have a sense of right and wrong and are therefore accountable.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Paul shows that the Gentiles who did not have the laws of God "do by nature" the things contained in the law. They have the law written on their hearts, as well as a conscience that either accuses or excuses themselves.
So, all men know what is good and what is evil and are accountable. A man who has never heard of Christ can know he has sinned by the law written on his heart and conscience.
I cannot say how persons who have never heard of Christ are saved, but we know that the scriptures say God is just and will do what is right. Perhaps all persons who have not heard of Christ are lost, I do not know for certain. But I do know a man who hears of Christ and rejects him is lost.
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Baptist boy
New Member
Romans 10:13-16 makes it clear that they can't be saved:
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall
be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall
be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Whatever revelation of God they have received.
I agree, but scriptures indicate that God holds people accountable for how they respond to what ever revelation they have received. Rahab believed and she was listed in the hall of faith in Heb 11. Why? Did she believe in Jesus? No, she believed in what she clearly saw and knew of God and God found favor in her.
Tom Butler
New Member
So far, we're agreed.
I'm not so sure that every individual has some knowledge of the true God. But even if he has, that doesn't answer the question of his accountability for not knowing about Jesus Christ.
I'd be interested in your take on what the net result is of God's holding him accountable accordingly.
I note note that he that knew not suffered punishment, but less so than the one who knew the lord's will. I agree that he will suffer punishment, and it will be because he deserved it. But not because of unbelief. We are not far apart here.
This is exactly what I believe as well. I think we are not quite together on how the violators will be held accountable. I believe they will be under condemnation for violating their own moral code.
Are you leaving open the possibility of salvation for those who have never heard of the Lord Jesus? I know you say you don't know for sure if they are lost. I grant this is a difficult area, so I, too, am reluctant to be completely self-assured about my position.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Let me be clear. N
NE can be saved apart from the atoning work of Christ. However, it is clear from scripture that God has mercy on people of the OT and credited them as righteous because they believed God. They responded in faith to the revelation they had received. I believe God honors the faith by granting more revelation of himself. That is not only my belief from what I read but its my experience. It seems as if the more I trust Christ in my walk with Him the more he reveals of Himself to me. We often want God to show us more so that we will trust Him more, but the opposite is what really works. We must trust Him more and then "he will show us great and mighty things which we did not know." If we are faithful with the little revelation he will grant us more revelation.
Has anyone posted this passage?
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,
and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
This implies that we were in the state of death before we believed.
HankD
Dead on Hank! (pun intended)
But... what is the order shown?
Hear my words ----> Believeth ----> Pass from death to life
You will NEVER see scripture that places life before faith, EVER. Scripture always shows faith preceding life (regeneration).
Jesus said the DEAD shall hear his voice, and they (the DEAD) that hear SHALL (future tense) live. (Jn 5:25)