IF Rejecting Jesus is What Condems, Until one Hears Gospel, Are they saved?

[Winman]

So far, we're agreed.



I'm not so sure that every individual has some knowledge of the true God. But even if he has, that doesn't answer the question of his accountability for not knowing about Jesus Christ.

I'd be interested in your take on what the net result is of God's holding him accountable accordingly.





I note note that he that knew not suffered punishment, but less so than the one who knew the lord's will. I agree that he will suffer punishment, and it will be because he deserved it. But not because of unbelief. We are not far apart here.

This is exactly what I believe as well. I think we are not quite together on how the violators will be held accountable. I believe they will be under condemnation for violating their own moral code.



Are you leaving open the possibility of salvation for those who have never heard of the Lord Jesus? I know you say you don't know for sure if they are lost. I grant this is a difficult area, so I, too, am reluctant to be completely self-assured about my position.

I can't say. I always remember that the scriptures say there is no other name under heaven (Jesus) whereby we must be saved.

I was talking to my pastor about when Jesus was in hell, and I asked him if he was only in Abraham's Bosom (paradise) or the torment section where the rich man was. He said BOTH, and that he preached the gospel to those there.

I will have to ask him more, he must have scripture to support this view.

So, PERHAPS it is possible that those persons who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel hear it.

But I really can't say, so I believe we must go with what we do know, which is that the only way a person can be saved is trusting Christ.

 

[HankD]

Dead on Hank! (pun intended)

But... what is the order shown?

Hear my words ----> Believeth ----> Pass from death to life

You will NEVER see scripture that places life before faith, EVER. Scripture always shows faith preceding life (regeneration).

Jesus said the DEAD shall hear his voice, and they (the DEAD) that hear SHALL (future tense) live. (Jn 5:25)

Kind of like Lazarus in the physical world...

HankD

 

[Winman]

Kind of like Lazarus in the physical world...

HankD

The physically dead can hear God, how do you think Jesus is going to call the spiritually alive AND dead out of their graves at the resurrection?

Jn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And they shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The scriptures say the DEAD can hear, despite what Calvinism teaches. The rich man in hell carried on a conversation with Abraham. As long as you view spiritual death like physical death you will err.

When Jesus called Lazarus, his soul in Paradise heard Jesus, and he returned to his body and came forth as he was commanded.

 

[Tom Butler]

Let me be clear. NNE can be saved apart from the atoning work of Christ. However, it is clear from scripture that God has mercy on people of the OT and credited them as righteous because they believed God. They responded in faith to the revelation they had received.

I did not doubt you, but something you wrote raised the question in my mind. Thanks for the clarification.

I believe God honors the faith by granting more revelation of himself. That is not only my belief from what I read but its my experience. It seems as if the more I trust Christ in my walk with Him the more he reveals of Himself to me. We often want God to show us more so that we will trust Him more, but the opposite is what really works. We must trust Him more and then "he will show us great and mighty things which we did not know." If we are faithful with the little revelation he will grant us more revelation.

I think there is merit in this view. Follow the light you have, and God will give more light. God is not obligated to give more light to one who fails to follow what he has.

But, God has commanded us to carry the gospel to every creature--the Light. Can we make the case that some of them are not following the light they have, and God, in his mercy, and by his grace, is extending the gospel to those who don't deserve it?

I like your view, but I have this nagging question that I'm missing something.

 

[Skandelon]

I think there is merit in this view. Follow the light you have, and God will give more light. God is not obligated to give more light to one who fails to follow what he has.

Well said. :thumbs:

But, God has commanded us to carry the gospel to every creature--the Light. Can we make the case that some of them are not following the light they have, and God, in his mercy, and by his grace, is extending the gospel to those who don't deserve it?

No one is "deserving," however God in his mercy extends the gospel anyway because He is Love and he desires all to come to repentance and to be saved.

 

[quantumfaith]

Well said. :thumbs:

No one is "deserving," however God in his mercy extends the gospel anyway because He is Love and he desires all to come to repentance and to be saved.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[RAdam]

Yes.

If they cannot be condemned for rejecting Jesus, of whom they have never heard, then what is the basis of their condemnation?

I believe Romans 2 provides the answer. They are a "law unto themselves." (v 14). They also have the law "written on their hearts." (v 15) By that, I believe it means that they have some type of moral code.

The problem, of course, is that, because of our sinful nature, they don't even keep their own moral code perfectly. That will the basis of their condemnation, and they will have no excuse.

So God is going to judge people based on their own idea of morality? So if a person thinks that sodomy is moral, God isn't going to judge them to have sinned? If a person thinks it is perfectly ok to commit rampant fornication, God won't judge them to have sinned?

You do realize that the people who were a law unto themselves did the law despite not having the written law and thus showed the work of the law written on their hearts. It didn't say a law was written on their hearts, or their own law was written on their hearts. It said the law was written on their hearts. By the way, that passage also says they by nature did these things. The same human author tells us that man's carnal mind is emnity against God and is not subject to the law of God. It cannot be by man's outward nature that these gentiles did the things contained in the law, it must be by another nature. Paul went on to say that the inward man (spiritual nature) is that which delights in the law of God. Hence, these gentiles are born again.

 

[HankD]

The physically dead can hear God, how do you think Jesus is going to call the spiritually alive AND dead out of their graves at the resurrection?

Jn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And they shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The scriptures say the DEAD can hear, despite what Calvinism teaches. The rich man in hell carried on a conversation with Abraham. As long as you view spiritual death like physical death you will err.

When Jesus called Lazarus, his soul in Paradise heard Jesus, and he returned to his body and came forth as he was commanded.

winman you really don't know what I believe about this matter.
If God wants the dead to hear, they will hear.

In case you don't know brother, I am not a calvinist.

HankD

 

[Winman]

winman you really don't know what I believe about this matter.
If God wants the dead to hear, they will hear.

In case you don't know brother, I am not a calvinist.

HankD

Well, sorry about that Hank! Just goes to show that the written word can be misleading, I took your last post as sarcasm, as Calvinists often use Lazarus as a likeness to those spiritually dead. So, my apologies.

But I agree, and this is a point Calvinists seem to miss, that if the spiritually dead cannot hear God, then God is also unable to speak to the spiritually dead. So, they are limiting God's power and ability when they say this, though they never seem to realize it.

 

[Tom Butler]

So God is going to judge people based on their own idea of morality? So if a person thinks that sodomy is moral, God isn't going to judge them to have sinned? If a person thinks it is perfectly ok to commit rampant fornication, God won't judge them to have sinned?

You do realize that the people who were a law unto themselves did the law despite not having the written law and thus showed the work of the law written on their hearts. It didn't say a law was written on their hearts, or their own law was written on their hearts. It said the law was written on their hearts. By the way, that passage also says they by nature did these things. The same human author tells us that man's carnal mind is emnity against God and is not subject to the law of God. It cannot be by man's outward nature that these gentiles did the things contained in the law, it must be by another nature. Paul went on to say that the inward man (spiritual nature) is that which delights in the law of God. Hence, these gentiles are born again.

In this context we can refer to the law written on the heart as one's conscience. This conscience gives them a sense of right and wrong. It either excuses or accuses them.

It's one thing to acknowledge a a moral code written on our hearts; it is quite another to keep it perfectly. To have such a code does not equate with always wanting to live by it. Even Paul acknowledge that the law was good, at the same time admitting that becoming aware of a law made him want to break it.

We know that no one ever kept the law perfectly, except Jesus.

When they stand condemned, they will acknowledge that the condemnation is just, for they knew right from wrong and willingly did wrong.

Then he can explain why God's law written on his heart excuses sodomy and rampant fornication.

 

[RAdam]

Here's what Paul wrote:

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Paul says they had not the law. Not a law, the law. The law that had been given to the Jews in written form, the Gentiles did not have. Nevertheless, they did by nature the things contained in the law. Not things contained in their own morality, which was perverted and not according to the law. How did they do this? They had the law written on their hearts. Who put it there? They didn't have some tablet of stone or scroll which told them the law. How was it put there? God wrote His law on their hearts. Now, the question them becomes how they did those things by nature when their carnal nature is not subject to the law of God. The only biblical answer is by the inward man, which delights in His law. Hence, these aren't unregenerate Gentiles whom God is judging by their own perverted morality, but born again Gentiles who have done the things contained in God's law despite not having it in written form. Now remember, this whole section of scripture is Paul speaking against the Jews for their not having kept the law, and he brings forth these Gentiles to show that just having the law isn't enough, one must perform the law.

 

[preacher4truth]

I think there is merit in this view. Follow the light you have, and God will give more light. God is not obligated to give more light to one who fails to follow what he has.

I like your view, but I have this nagging question that I'm missing something.

Key word: merit. We don't merit anything from Christ in our lost state, neither do we earn more light by works, nor do our works lead us to meriting salvation. There is the nagging part that you've been missing.

 

[quantumfaith]

Proverbs 1:20-33

20 Out in the open wisdom calls aloud,
she raises her voice in the public square;
21 on top of the wall[a] she cries out,
at the city gate she makes her speech:
22 “How long will you who are simple love your simple ways?
How long will mockers delight in mockery
and fools hate knowledge?
23 Repent at my rebuke!
Then I will pour out my thoughts to you,
I will make known to you my teachings.
24 But since you refuse to listen when I call
and no one pays attention when I stretch out my hand,
25 since you disregard all my advice
and do not accept my rebuke,
26 I in turn will laugh when disaster strikes you;
I will mock when calamity overtakes you—
27 when calamity overtakes you like a storm,
when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind,
when distress and trouble overwhelm you.

28 “Then they will call to me but I will not answer;
they will look for me but will not find me,
29 since they hated knowledge
and did not choose to fear the LORD.
30 Since they would not accept my advice
and spurned my rebuke,
31 they will eat the fruit of their ways
and be filled with the fruit of their schemes.
32 For the waywardness of the simple will kill them,
and the complacency of fools will destroy them;
33 but whoever listens to me will live in safety
and be at ease, without fear of harm.”

Proverbs 2:1-10

1 My son, if you accept my words
and store up my commands within you,
2 turning your ear to wisdom
and applying your heart to understanding—
3 indeed, if you call out for insight
and cry aloud for understanding,
4 and if you look for it as for silver
and search for it as for hidden treasure,
5 then you will understand the fear of the LORD
and find the knowledge of God.
6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.
7 He holds success in store for the upright,
he is a shield to those whose walk is blameless,
8 for he guards the course of the just
and protects the way of his faithful ones.
9 Then you will understand what is right and just
and fair—every good path.
10 For wisdom will enter your heart,
and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul.

 

[HankD]

Well, sorry about that Hank! Just goes to show that the written word can be misleading, I took your last post as sarcasm, as Calvinists often use Lazarus as a likeness to those spiritually dead. So, my apologies.

But I agree, and this is a point Calvinists seem to miss, that if the spiritually dead cannot hear God, then God is also unable to speak to the spiritually dead. So, they are limiting God's power and ability when they say this, though they never seem to realize it.

Yes, our God does as He pleases...

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.​

However, I wouldn't say they are limiting God's power but believe that their view represents what God has chosen in His sovereignty.​

HankD​

 

[Tom Butler]

Key word: merit. We don't merit anything from Christ in our lost state, neither do we earn more light by works, nor do our works lead us to meriting salvation. There is the nagging part that you've been missing.

Thanks, I think that's it.

 

[JesusFan]

Unbelief.

Scripture indicates than men are held accountable for their response to God's revelation. Both camps should agree on this point. The difference is regarding the doctrine of Total Inability and Effectuality.

Actually ALL of us are lost in Adam, God has accounted his sin and fall has being applied to all of us...

So being born sinners, we are all estranged form God in our state/condition...

Do you hold that God has reconciled us back to Himself by the Cross, in sense that we all start out with him again on "even/level" footing, and that rejecting jesus is how one gets 'lost' again?

So IF one never hears, one stays saved?

 

[JesusFan]

I did not doubt you, but something you wrote raised the question in my mind. Thanks for the clarification.



I think there is merit in this view. Follow the light you have, and God will give more light. God is not obligated to give more light to one who fails to follow what he has.

But, God has commanded us to carry the gospel to every creature--the Light. Can we make the case that some of them are not following the light they have, and God, in his mercy, and by his grace, is extending the gospel to those who don't deserve it?

I like your view, but I have this nagging question that I'm missing something.

problem with all of this is that we ALL are seen by God as being "in Adam" so we ALL are sinners condemned by our own natures BEFORE rejecting jesus...

UNLESS you hold hold to god reconciling all of us back to Himself by the Cross, giving us aa :level palying" field again...

Unless you believe in Jesus, will be condemned by being sinners, not just by rejecting jesus!

I DO hold that in the Cross, God has provided for those under age of accountibility/mentally challenged etc to be covered by Blood and be saved, also that he will have His elect to get saved from throughout the earth, but those who are adult and accountible to Him are already in a lost state and must hear Gospel to believe!

 

[kyredneck]

double post

 

[kyredneck]

Here's what Paul wrote:

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Paul says they had not the law. Not a law, the law. The law that had been given to the Jews in written form, the Gentiles did not have. Nevertheless, they did by nature the things contained in the law. Not things contained in their own morality, which was perverted and not according to the law. How did they do this? They had the law written on their hearts. Who put it there? They didn't have some tablet of stone or scroll which told them the law. How was it put there? God wrote His law on their hearts. Now, the question them becomes how they did those things by nature when their carnal nature is not subject to the law of God. The only biblical answer is by the inward man, which delights in His law. Hence, these aren't unregenerate Gentiles whom God is judging by their own perverted morality, but born again Gentiles who have done the things contained in God's law despite not having it in written form. Now remember, this whole section of scripture is Paul speaking against the Jews for their not having kept the law, and he brings forth these Gentiles to show that just having the law isn't enough, one must perform the law.

Amen Brother! :thumbs:

 

[Skandelon]

Actually ALL of us are lost in Adam, God has accounted his sin and fall has being applied to all of us...

So being born sinners, we are all estranged form God in our state/condition...

Do you hold that God has reconciled us back to Himself by the Cross, in sense that we all start out with him again on "even/level" footing, and that rejecting jesus is how one gets 'lost' again?

So IF one never hears, one stays saved?

No, we are born enemies and God initiates reconciliation by sending the powerful appeal of the gospel. If we reject that appeal we are held to account. If we never hear that appeal we are held to account for whatever level of revelation we have received. Either way, it is unbelief in face of the clear revelation of God that condemns a man.

I've answered your question about those who don't hear at least twice so far... Refer back to those posts.