If the Holy Spirit can be resisted, how can he be effectual?

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
1)The difference is that the Scripture, which I have presented and you have ignored, supports my premise, not yours.

2)Once more, your paradox causes confusion among believers and brings reproach upon the character of God. Thanks but I stick to my paradox, you stick to yours.

1)Actually, Bill, I have yet to find anything in your interpretation of Scripture that has made a single dent in the Biblical support for the doctrines of God's amazing grace. Frankly, your arguments are no better than what I grew up learning in the Church of Christ denomination. And those teachings have been weighed in the balance and found wanting.

2)Actually, Bill, it is your man-based scheme that brings reproach on God's character as you make Him out to be impotent and totally dependent upon man in order for Him to carry out His will and save anyone. That is why in the final, bottom line analysis, if your scheme was true(I thank God that it is not), not a single person would be in heaven.

 

[Ray Berrian]

KenH,

We are sorry that your Calvinistic doctrines conflict with Biblical principles and most importantly with God's mission to all of the lost ones. We are not performing a 'work' or 'good works' when we believe and trust only in Jesus for our final destiny. He--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit invites sinners to have faith in Him. [John 3:16] He does not with a 'strong hand' inforce the reception of His gift of grace. [Ephesians 2:8-9] If He was bringing in His elect by only His power, there would be no reason for Him to say, ' . . . that whosoever believeth in Him will not perish . . . ' He allows and has ordained that sinners 'believe' in Him for salvation, who are Calvinists to super impose their ideas and will on the Christian world called the church. In fact, if God has decreed in eternity past, that only select ones will be saved, the preaching of the Gospel, repentance, faith in Jesus are superfluous in His Divine redemptive ministry toward sinners. Calvinisits unwittingly are working against Almighty God Himself and are 'aiding and abetting' the evil one under the guise of Christendom.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Calvinists unwittingly are working against Almighty God Himself and are 'aiding and abetting' the evil one under the guise of Christendom.

And I say that Arminians are doing that by claiming that man can contribute to his own salvation. You are attempting to rob God of His glory in your salvation. But, thank God, you have failed and your teaching will continue to fail as you cannot, in reality, rob God as salvation is 100% the work of Almighty God and is not dependent on man one iota. Anyone who is saved is saved totally by God alone without any contribution(be it repentance or faith, or anything else) by fallen man. Period.

 

[Frogman]

The reason I don't hold to that view anymore is because I don't believe the scripture ever clearly teaches that there are two different callings from God, one effectual and the other not.

The scripture says that God's word will not return void and that it is sharper than any two edged sword. I believe the gospel, presented with the power of the HS, has everything needed to enable fallen humanity to respond in faith. I reject the doctrine that inserts an additional (secretive or hidden) call that can't be refused.

Haven't been on the Calvary patrol lately, my blood pressure was getting too high so I took a breather. I should be more loyal than this, after all it is the Calv/Arm (Calvary/Army) forum that made me a member of the 1000 posts club.

As the areas I have bolded indicate it is difficult to espouse either side always in pure language that won't betray or be deceptive to your true meaning.

Love Ya Brother Bill.

God Bless.
Bro.Dallas

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Ken H:
1)Actually, Bill, I have yet to find anything in your interpretation of Scripture that has made a single dent in the Biblical support for the doctrines of God's amazing grace.

Yet, coveniently you once again neglect all of the scriptural arguments and resort to unfounded claims and compartive analogies.

2)Actually, Bill, it is your man-based scheme that brings reproach on God's character as you make Him out to be impotent and totally dependent upon man in order for Him to carry out His will and save anyone.

Is God "impotent" because He gave the world over to be ruled by the prince of darkness. Is God "impotent" because He limits his sovereign control in the garden as Adam made a choice to sin? Is God "impotent" when He chooses to limit his control so as to grant man the ability and responsiblity to respond to His geniune call to faith and repentance? No, if one chooses to give up His control doesn't make him "impotent" it makes him purposeful and merciful.

That is why in the final, bottom line analysis, if your scheme was true(I thank God that it is not), not a single person would be in heaven.

If the "scheme" I teach was true it would be God's divine plan to allow for man to choose who they will serve and if indeed I am right and you are wrong then Ray is right you are unwittingly being used as a pond of the devil.

 

[Frogman]

Bro. Bill,

A "pond" is a place for gigging frogs and that offends me. (Though it could also be a place to Baptize those believers who by the Grace of God were redeemed at the Cross), but you don't believe men were redeemed here, it is not until they are presented with the Gospel and make a decision that they are purchased.

I believe the word you are searching for is "pawn" and I fail to see how the Doctrines of Grace can be construed as useful to Satan, it is, as far as I can tell, the only thing he is unable to imitate, this is why he introduced the 'decisional' doctrines which teach man can thwart the Grace of God. This is historically his domain and will remain so until the end of the age. Argue the merits of Calvinism/Arminianism all you want, but lay off the ponds unless you are baptizing believers...ok?


God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Ken H:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Calvinists unwittingly are working against Almighty God Himself and are 'aiding and abetting' the evil one under the guise of Christendom.

And I say that Arminians are doing that by claiming that man can contribute to his own salvation. </font>[/QUOTE]Nope. If you are right and we are wrong, then we are merely teaching what the apostles taught.

When someone asks us, "What must we do to be saved?"

We answer, "Believe and repent and you will be saved." Nothing more. We do no damage by teaching this, because even by Calvinist admission this "call" of the gospel is true. If people go on believing that it was their belief and repentance that brought them salvation, no eternal harm done.

But if your wrong just think of the people that Calvinism has hindered from understanding and recieving the truth. Think of all the churches that have been split up and the people who have been confused and distracted from their work because of this teaching?

We cause no eternal harm if we are wrong, but if your wrong you have caused great eternal harm. That should concern you!

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Frogman:
The reason I don't hold to that view anymore is because I don't believe the scripture ever clearly teaches that there are two different callings from God, one effectual and the other not.

The scripture says that God's word will not return void and that it is sharper than any two edged sword. I believe the gospel, presented with the power of the HS, has everything needed to enable fallen humanity to respond in faith. I reject the doctrine that inserts an additional (secretive or hidden) call that can't be refused.

As the areas I have bolded indicate it is difficult to espouse either side always in pure language that won't betray or be deceptive to your true meaning.

There is nothing that I said that betrays to my meaning. There are no clear teachings of a second calling of the HS. The general calling of the HS to all mankind is sufficient to save anyone who hears.

Thanks for spell checking me "pawn" is the correct word. However, I do think of Calvinism as being shallow, wet, filled with hardshelled reptiles and all covered with moss.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Frogman:
The reason I don't hold to that view anymore is because I don't believe the scripture ever clearly teaches that there are two different callings from God, one effectual and the other not.

The scripture says that God's word will not return void and that it is sharper than any two edged sword. I believe the gospel, presented with the power of the HS, has everything needed to enable fallen humanity to respond in faith. I reject the doctrine that inserts an additional (secretive or hidden) call that can't be refused.

As the areas I have bolded indicate it is difficult to espouse either side always in pure language that won't betray or be deceptive to your true meaning.

There is nothing that I said that betrays to my meaning. There are no clear teachings of a second calling of the HS. The general calling of the HS to all mankind is sufficient to save anyone who hears.

Thanks for spell checking me "pawn" is the correct word. However, I do think of Calvinism as being shallow, wet, filled with hardshelled reptiles and all covered with moss.

</font>[/QUOTE]you are describing turtles not frogs, so I find no offense in your statement. However, if Calvinism is shallow or moss covered it is only because so many have cast it aside and let becom stagnant.



God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
We cause no eternal harm if we are wrong,

And what should concern you, Brother Bill, is the continuing contempt with which you treat the importance of holding to sound doctrine. It is important - the Bible says so - whether you believe it is or not.

You, my friend, will never silence we Calvinists. You exude an attitude that you think you can by your sophisms, but you are wrong.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ken H,

Notice my views are always clustered with Scriptural backing while, in many cases, Calvinists merely site their dogma minus the strength of the Word of God.

Secondly, no human beings can diminish the glory of God by asking sinners to believe in Jesus. [John 3:16] This verse offers the spiritual cure for people's sins. Do you have a problem with people accepting Christ into their lives?

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Ken H:
You, my friend, will never silence we Calvinists.

You are right. I will never silence Calvinists, but I assure you that God will if you cause one of the little ones to stumble because of your confusing and disunifing doctrines that have no scriptural foundation except what you have created in your own minds.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Every sinner has been 'purchased' by God;[I John 2:2] reception into the fold of the elect happens only when sinners believe. [John 3:16] Cleansing in the atonement takes place at the moment of trusting only in Jesus Christ for forgiveness.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ken H:
You, my friend, will never silence we Calvinists.

You are right. I will never silence Calvinists, but I assure you that God will if you cause one of the little ones to stumble because of your confusing and disunifing doctrines that have no scriptural foundation except what you have created in your own minds. </font>[/QUOTE]You don't scare me, Brother Bill. Never have and you, Brother Bill, never will. And, this may come as a shock to you, but you do not speak for God. You are not the one through which we must strain our beliefs to arrive at sound doctrine. But I will concede to you that you have chutzpah, my friend, tons of it.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
no human beings can diminish the glory of God by asking sinners to believe in Jesus. [John 3:16]

Absolutely not. Unfortunately, your side shreds the sovereignty and the omnipotence of God to elevate your free will to the save level as God's will. You and Brother Bill may not see it but there are consequences to your attempt to diminish God. You folks do not hold the moral high ground in this debate. So ya'll can just get off your high horse.

 

[The Archangel]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Can a non-saved person hear God? No. Why? Because he is not of God.

This then, disqualifies the "elect" for until the elect are saved (regenerated) they are not of God!

If, however, the spirit regenerates that person, giving him a new heart that can hear God, he or she can respond to the call of Christ and His Gospel.

How shall they be saved, become regenerate, except they hear, and how shall they hear but by the Word of God!

Interesting dilemma you Calvinists have! You cannot hear unless regenerated, and you cannot be regenerated unless you hear. </font>[/QUOTE]Yelsew,

Again you failed to read further.... The following is the entire quote:

Can a non-saved person hear God? No. Why? Because he is not of God.

If, however, the spirit regenerates that person, giving him a new heart that can hear God, he or she can respond to the call of Christ and His Gospel.

Regeneration preceeds hearing. That is not to say, however, that a regenerated person doesn't need to hear. All need to hear in order to be saved, even those who are not part of the elect. The only difference is this: God makes it possible, in the case of the elect, for the "deaf" or "dead" to hear and respond.

In the future, please quote my whole line of arguement rather than a part out of context. I must say to your defense, however, that I do start new lines quite often. So, it is possible that you thought I was advancing two different thoughts--which I wasn't.

Blessings,

Archangel

 

[William C]

Ray,

Just forget it, just read back through this entire thread and you will see Jimmy, you and I listing scriptural argument after scriptural argument and then you'll see the Calvinists avoiding them all.

Mike makes one scriptural point to which I responded and I still haven't heard back from him. Archangel refers to another passage, avoiding the original passages, to which I also responded without rebuttal.

Frogman corrects my spelling (thanks Dallas

)

Then Ken pops his head in with purely unfounded statements of his opinion as he compares us to the Church of Christ. And tells me something that I am fully aware of, that I don't speak for God, as if any of us do! And totally ignores any of the scriptural arguments that have been made in throughout this thread.

So, Ray, it doesn't matter how many verses you list and how many well thought out arguments you make, Ken has made up his mind that he already knows the mind of God completely. We are just wasting our time if we are going to discuss our opinions and make unfounded accusations with guys like that.

I just wish one of you Calvinists would deal with Jimmy's original post. Deal with Acts 7:51 like Mike attempted to do and then stick around to defend your viewpoint when it gets attacked.

Or Ken why don't you respond to just one of Ray's many well thought out scripturally based arguments, instead of popping in to make rude comments.

This board is to debate the soteriological view of scripture not to badger eachother with unfounded accusations.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
This board is to debate the soteriological view of scripture not to badger eachother with unfounded accusations.

So, Brother Bill, are you going to cease with your perjorative comments?

 

[KenH]

Acts 7:51 - Any time we sin we are resisting the Holy Spirit unless you want to argue that the Holy Spirit wants us to sin and I don't think you are doing that. There is no argument to be made using this verse that strikes a blow against the Biblical teaching that the Holy Spirit regenerates dead sinners so that they come to Jesus in repentance and faith.

Okay, now fire away, if you dare.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Ken H:
Acts 7:51 - Any time we sin we are resisting the Holy Spirit unless you want to argue that the Holy Spirit wants us to sin and I don't think you are doing that. There is no argument to be made using this verse that strikes a blow against the Biblical teaching that the Holy Spirit regenerates dead sinners so that they come to Jesus in repentance and faith.

Okay, now fire away, if you dare.

Ken, you are correct we do resist the Holy Spirit when we sin but that is not what Stephen is preaching about in this context. He is speaking about the place where God dwells. He as just stated that God does not dwell in man made temples and he quotes scripture to support that claim, then he accuses the Pharisees of resisting the Holy Spirit just as their fathers had resisted the indwelling of the Spirit by building him a house (verse 47). The Holy Spirit doesn't reside in buildings he resides in people and they were resisting his indwelling which we know from Gal. 3:14 comes through faith.

Yes, resisting the Holy Spirit also involves continual disobedience to the things of God, but it is clear from the context of this passage that they are resisting the indwelling of the Spirit in their hearts and their lives.