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If the Holy Spirit can be resisted, how can he be effectual?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Jimmy J., Mar 10, 2003.

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  1. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    ABSOLUTLEY, COMPLETELY, AND TOTALLY WRONG!!!!!

    We were created to rely and depend on God totally. This is the nature of Adam's sin. He failed to trust and rely on God. That was the Genesis, if you will, of his sin.

    Humans were never designed to be independant of God.

    I think you are not understanding what the phrase "In the Image of God" means in its fullest extent.

    Blessings,

    Archangel     </font>[/QUOTE]I suppose that I did not make my statements crystal clear. I presumed some similarity of though regarding God's creation. But since your response indicates there is none, I'll spell it out for you.

    God did not create man to be equal with God, or equal with the Angels, or anything other than created man, making each independent from all others, and individual in character, down to the point that no two of them are exactly alike.

    God created us to be independent individuals, he gave us the ability to hear his Word and to have faith in what we hear, thus "owning" that for which we have faith.

    Obviously man cannot own God or Jesus or anything spiritual for that matter in a physical possession sense, but we can behave as if we do own them. We are, in fact, told to behave as Children of God meaning that we do "possess God" as our father.

    Possession in this sense is the same that your children express when they tell their playmates that My daddy's bigger than your daddy. Though you are the father, your child does not own you "as property". We do not own God the Father either, but we certainly do refer to him as "My" (singular possessive), and "Our" (possessive) Father, personal and possessive relationships.
    Who does God rely and depend upon?
    I did not say we are, but we are designed to be independent from one another.
    Therefore we are treated as individuals by the creator in regards to redemption and salvation. EACH human must respond independently, and individually to God's message and call.
    My goodness what a wonderful title for a topic..."The image of God. " Since it is not clear whether there is Calvinist vs Armenian opinion split regarding the Image of God, it may not be possible to keep such a Topic on the Calvinist/Arminian forum.
     
    #81 Yelsew, Mar 17, 2003
  2. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Yelsew,

    It is late and I have guests who are turning-in...so, this must be short. I'll deal with the rest of this tomorrow.

    Himself. He is completely and totally self-sufficient. He does not need anyone or anything in any way, shape, or form.

    Good night! [​IMG]

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     
    #82 The Archangel, Mar 17, 2003
  3. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Yelsew,

    Now I continue:

    No big disagreement here.

    Independent from each other, perhaps. However, we were never intended to be independent from God.

    I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.???????????

    It sure sounded like it: God created us to be independent individuals, he gave us the ability to hear his Word and to have faith in what we hear, thus "owning" that for which we have faith.
    Source:http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=35;t=000620;p=6#000076

    Yes, it would be a good topic. You're right, I'm not sure that it would be best-placed in this discussion section. However, since we've talked about it already, perhaps it would be allowed for clarification purposes.

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     
    #83 The Archangel, Mar 17, 2003
  4. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Himself. He is completely and totally self-sufficient. He does not need anyone or anything in any way, shape, or form.

    Good night! [​IMG]

    Blessings,

    Archangel     </font>[/QUOTE]If we are in the image of God, then we too should depend on ourselves. Is that your meaning?
     
    #84 Yelsew, Mar 17, 2003
  5. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    I will try to answer the original question and not all the others.

    The Holy Spirit may be resisted and rejected until God chooses to overcome. If you do not believe this, then you have God wanting something but unable to accomplish it. How does that square with omnipotence.

    This is just another reason why I believe in the freewill of God and reject the sovereignty of man.
     
    #85 Daniel David, Mar 17, 2003
  6. William C

    William C New Member

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    PTW, you assume that God could not sovereignly choose to allow man to have a choice. I know you disagree with us about our soteriology, but do you believe that God could have created a system in which God maintains His sovereignty while allowing man to have a truly free will in regard to responding to the gospel by faith? Is it possible for God to do that, or is this one thing that God "cannot" do in His omnipotence. The fact that so much of scripture, even by Calvinists own testimony, leads people to believe that anyone and everyone can believe. Isn't it just possible that these passages actually mean what they say and mankind has been sovereignly in creation been given that ability because God desired a creation that had the ability to choose whom they will follow.

    Again, PTW, I know you won't concede that this is true, I'm just asking you "is it possible for God to create a system were He maintains His sovereignty while giving us free will?" Is it possible? If God is truly omnipotent anything is possible.

    It seems to me that both God's sovereignty and man's free will is clearly seen in the scripture yet Calvinism denies and explains away one for fear that it hurts the other as if God couldn't have created in this manner. Calvinism is more careful to "protect" God's sovereignty than scripture was.

    For example, and Calvinists would never say something like, "Save yourselves..." Yet, Peter uses these words. A Calvinists when asked how can we be saved might say, "Repent and believe," but would be thinking, "You can't do anything," thus being deceptive in his answer. A Calvinists when preaching could not honestly say that Christ has died for you or even that God loves you, yet that is seen throughout the scripture.

    BTW, having the ability to believe in the message of the gospel is a far cry from making man Sovereign, especially if it was God's sovereignty that granted us that ability. God often limites his control over things by his permissive will, why do you assume He couldn't do so in regard to our salvation.
     
    #86 William C, Mar 17, 2003
  7. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Yelsew,

    No that is not what I mean. Again, you are not understanding the "Image of God."

    You take the "Image" to mean that we are somehow coppies of God. In effect, we are little gods. This is not the case and the Bible sure doesn't point to that. I may have overstated things in this example....but the thought is logical.

    Image of God is presented in Genesis to a people who would understand the "Image" in a representative function.

    In ancient Egypt, there was a custom of the Pharoah's, when they conquered a land, they would carve their image in a large mountain or create some other large representation of themselves. This was to show his image to the people.

    When the Bible speaks of us in the "Image of God," it is to the representative function of man over the creation that it PRIMARILY refers to. We, man, are the "Generals" over the "Army" of creation while staying in right relation to God "The President." Again this analogy is a bit crude but I think it gets the point across.

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     
    #87 The Archangel, Mar 18, 2003
  8. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    If you think that is what the image of God is, then you are sadly mistaken. All you are saying is that God gave man dominion over the creation, thus his function is similar to that of God, or the image that you have of God.

    The true image of God is that man is spirit as God is spirit. Man has attributes as God has attributes. Man is intended to live eternally as God is eternal.

    Jesus tells us, [John 4:24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    Jesus tells us, [John 6:63] It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    We know from our own life experience, that upon our death of the flesh, the flesh is already in a state of decomposition to its base elements. Nine months after the spirit departs the flesh, the flesh is not recognizable as to what it was while the spirit resided therein.

    The spirit has departed the flesh and for the believer is in the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Apostle Paul said it. For the non believer the spirit is "in-waiting" for judgment.

    The flesh has attributes that rapidly change when the flesh dies. The tent in which our spirit lived is now useless and is discarded by the spirit.

    The spirit has attributes that remain with the spirit. It is these attributes by which the "fruits of the spirit" are produced. The human spirit that is submissive to the Holy Spirit produces the fruit described by Paul in Corinthians.

    The Spirit of God is interested in the spirit of man, and not the flesh of man. Can God effect the flesh of man? Of course, he created it! But God does not force the spirit of man, he persuades through knowledge and truth, but because God is the Spiritual world, and man is limited by God, we either accept or reject that which we cannot see, hear or feel. The spirit of man may choose to believe or not believe.

    Paul points out the distinct separation between the human spirit and the flesh:
    [Rom 7:25] "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind (spirit) I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
    [1 Cor 5:5] "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
    [1 Cor 15:49,50] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    [Phil 3:3] For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
    [Col 2:5] For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

    [1 Pet 1:23,24] Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

    [1 Pet 3:18,19] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (the spirit lives after the flesh is dead)

    There are other scriptures that provide insight into "the image of God". It is because we are made in the image of God that God gave man dominion over the rest of the creation. Dominion means stewardship, which is governing or controlling, and theologically dominating!

     
    #88 Yelsew, Mar 18, 2003
  9. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    1. It is possible, but you would have to have a different Scripture.

    2. We know that God cannot lie. That is not a smack against omnipotence but proof of his holiness. So, Scripture reveals that it is against his word (therefore him) to say otherwise. Btw, do you enjoy believing in mere possibilities?

    3. No where does it say in all of the Bible that you can believe apart from some kind of work of God. It is true that all people are commanded to believe.

    4. Two things here. First, the verses do mean what they say. It just isn't the position the arminians believe in. Second, your personal desire to see man at the center of the universe is sad.

    5. Why would I believe a lie? Also, why can you not see the utter ridiculousness of this thinking. Okay, so God wants you saved and you don't want to be saved. In the end, you win and God could not change anything. Man is the victor. No Bill, man does not get to play God as much as he might want to. You should know better.

    6. Judges... nnnnnnnnnk. Sorry, can God lie, go against his nature, sin, worship satan? Oh wait, with God all things are possible. Yeah, I am sure that is not what the Scripture means. I do admonish you to keep posting. You will probably convince more people of God's free will than any calvinist could.

    7. Free will taught throughout the Bible? Show me all those verses. All you will do is show me commands to repent, be obedient and believe. If this is proof of free will, I hope you are not a lawyer. You assume your position and then go see, see, look right here. Nonsense. Pure, unadulterated nonsense.

    Bill, I would encourage you to repent of this veiled idolatry and believe in the one true God whose throne is heaven and whose footstool is earth.
     
    #89 Daniel David, Mar 18, 2003
  10. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Again, Yelsew, read what I wrote: When the Bible speaks of us in the "Image of God," it is to the representative function of man over the creation that it PRIMARILY refers to.

    Notice the word PRIMARILY. Of course we have a spirit and God is spirit. That is not what I'm debating. You seem to think that I am...

    It is interesting, however, that the original Hebrew for man being created includes, as is properly translated, "And man became a living soul." The Hebrew speaks of animals in this way too! Now, I'm not saying that yours or my mutt will be in heaven. However, I am saying that the same word for the same attribute, that you are elevating far beyond the historical context, is applied to man and animal.

    The "Image of God" is primarily functional in nature. However, the "Spiritual" and "Eternal" aspects of us are, I firmly believe, part of the "Image of God." However, those things are secondary but not less important. I know that seems contradictory...Sorry. It is somewhat paradoxical.

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     
    #90 The Archangel, Mar 18, 2003
  11. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    I did read what you wrote. Hence my reply. I believe my description of how we are in the image of God is superior to yours in every way.
     
    #91 Yelsew, Mar 18, 2003
  12. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Do you now persuade God or men? :confused:

    Brother Dallas
     
    #92 Frogman, Mar 19, 2003
  13. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    It is sad that you have such a myopic view of the world. You only take what you say as something worth listnening to. You don't offer scripture or historical contexts to refute my claims.

    You bailed on the discussion.

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     
    #93 The Archangel, Mar 19, 2003
  14. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Don't be so ignorant!

    I compared my thoughts against your thoughts, and concluded that my version of "the image of God" for which I posted a number of scriptures, was better than yours for which you posted no scriptures. Yet you accuse me of Myopia and a narrow view of the world? The world is not the topic, the image of God is! Furthermore, my thoughts encompass all mankind!

    Frogman, apparently Neither. But then again your opinion is of no greater value, either.
     
    #94 Yelsew, Mar 19, 2003
  15. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Yelsew,

    How is it that I am the ignorant one???? I'm the one, not to pat myself on the back, who has done the contextual research to lead to the conclusion that I have come to. I have had good and learned teachers who have shown me certain things worth investigating. This is not Ignorance!

    You, by failing to examine the my claims against the objective information which is available, have shown yourself to be the ignorant one.

    You disagree with my conclusions. Fine. Know, however, that it is an uneducated and ignorant disagrement. It is not based on fact. No, your disagreement is based on your own subjective understanding of the Bible. Furthermore, you do not seek to become more educated in such matters.

    Rather than do all these things that are common in scholarship (study, research, etc.), you revert to: "My view is superior." You give no proof; you give no reason. You have reverted to the sand-lot, kindergarten mind-set of "My dad is biger than your dad" and "I'm taking my marbles and going home."

    This is unfortunate. We all might be able to learn from one another in our discussions (Yes, even I can learn from you!). It is apparent that you do not want to do this. Rather than research, you turn to the ad hominem arguement. Rather than debate and discuss issues and material, you attack the person.

    Some advise: Study a person's claims before you dismiss them. You might learn something.

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     
    #95 The Archangel, Mar 19, 2003
  16. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    I did as you suggest, and arrive again at the same conclusion. Have you done so with what I posted?
     
    #96 Yelsew, Mar 19, 2003
  17. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Yes, I have concluded.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #97 Frogman, Mar 19, 2003
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