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If the Holy Spirit is In Charasmatic Movement, Why the errors and heresies?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
Just saying I still hold to most of what Baptist believe about the core beliefs...I just believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit is for today!What you believe in doesn't make it the truth.
What you believe in doesn't make it Baptist doctrine, as you have seen on this board. Even though you have the name Baptist on your church, that doesn't make "Charismatic doctrine" a "Baptist" belief. You should know better than that.
They have not ceased as you believe. I have shown that in scriptures! How many times do you have to read 1 Cor. 12 before you get it! Paul says the manifestation of the Holy Spirit are...and then list them...all 9 of them!You are still confused about "the manifestation of the Holy Spirit."
We all believe in that.
It is the gifts of the Holy Spirit that we believe have ceased.
Why do you confuse the two?
See, I could use that same scripture and turn it around on you! To me you are the unbeliver in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit!Look at the context of the entire passage:
2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
You are unequally yoked together with unbelievers (the Charismatic movement).
There is no agreement that the temple of God has with idols.
But I am not in unbelief! I believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit! I believe in Jesus as my Lord and Saviour! I believe that Jesus is the Son of God!Read what these verses are teaching.
Wherefore come out from among them (all of this unbelief).
If you have the truth (Baptist belief), separate yourself from the unbelief of the Charismatic movement, saith the Lord.
Yeshua, there are false all across the board! False christians, false apostles, prophets etc. You can not disclaim the real because of the false!the teachings and theology of the Movement of MOST of its 'patron saints" are error filled at best, heresies at worst...
Again, id theHoly Spirit EVER give out false teachings/revelations to ANY in the bible?
That sin cannot be committed today, and certainly not by a believer. You don't even know what it is. I suggest some more serious Bible study on your part.Isn't Blaspheming attibuting to satan what God is doing?
Go and study the context, and see what was said, and the context in which it was said. You are way off.They told Jesus he was doing the works of satan....you are coming close to saying the same thing!
I am not ignorant. You do not rightly divide the word of truth.What if you are wrong? What if it is of God? I would be very careful...you are doing it out of ignorance..but you have been shown in scripture where it is true for today! So can you claim ignorance??
Look what Paul said:
1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
--And yet you take virtually every verse he instructs the Corinthians to do, every rebuke he gives them and misinterpret them.
For example, nowhere does he condone private prayer; not one example. You say he does. Only by a perversion of Scripture can you come to that conclusion.
In context of the latter half of chapter 13 he specifically talks of revelatory gifts, and the entire context is about revelation. You change the context and introduce another subject which he never was talking about in the first place. You ignore the Greek. The gender of teleios is neuter; ekklesia is feminine.
You ignore the fact that every time "tongues" is used it means a real foreign language that can be understood, that needs an interpreter. But you speak gibberish. It is not a language. You don't understand it. Neither do you have an interpreter. That in itself should tell you it is wrong.
You say the gifts are for today, yet you cannot demonstrate them, and never have seen anyone else demonstrate them--complete hypocrisy.
The gift of healing as per Acts 5:16--not done today.
The gift of miracles--not operative today.
The gift of languages--as done in Biblical times--not done today.
Total lack of evidence but you believe in them anyway. Complete foolishness.
No, I am not wrong.
Who across this board denies the trinity, denies the atonement, and tells us that we are all little gods?Yeshua, there are false all across the board! False christians, false apostles, prophets etc. You can not disclaim the real because of the false!
I believe in the manifestation of the Spirit also. But the gifts of the Spirit have ceased as has been indicated in Heb.2:3,4 and plenty of other Scriptures which you reject.Just saying I still hold to most of what Baptist believe about the core beliefs...I just believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit is for today!
He listed them to the Corinthian church. That does not mean they are for us. We don't live in the middle of the first century. Isn't it odd that he never listed them for any other church? To the Hebrews he indicated they had ceased for they were only signs for the Apostles. Hebrews was written just before 70 A.D.; Corinthians was written ca. 55 A.D.They have not ceased as you believe. I have shown that in scriptures! How many times do you have to read 1 Cor. 12 before you get it! Paul says the manifestation of the Holy Spirit are...and then list them...all 9 of them!
NOt Me!......Who across this board denies the trinity, denies the atonement, and tells us that we are all little gods?
And I don't know of anyone else on the board that does either. So why this statement:NOt Me!......
Unless I misunderstood you. Did you mean by "board" Baptist Board?Yeshua, there are false all across the board! False christians, false apostles, prophets etc. You can not disclaim the real because of the false!
Even if you didn't, all across the entire spectrum of evangelicalism there are no believers that:
deny the trinity,
require either baptism or tongues for salvation,
deny the atonement,
believe we are all little gods.
Because if they do, they are not saved. They are outside "evangelicalism" and yet at the same time inside the Charismatic Movement where you are.
No, context shows what it is and this was discussed and I showed with scriptures on another thread!That sin cannot be committed today, and certainly not by a believer. You don't even know what it is. I suggest some more serious Bible study on your part.
Go and study the context, and see what was said, and the context in which it was said. You are way off.
Speaking to God is prayer! Giving thanks is prayer!I am not ignorant. You do not rightly divide the word of truth.
Look what Paul said:
1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
--And yet you take virtually every verse he instructs the Corinthians to do, every rebuke he gives them and misinterpret them.
For example, nowhere does he condone private prayer; not one example. You say he does. Only by a perversion of Scripture can you come to that conclusion.
Context of that chapter is love and maturity!In context of the latter half of chapter 13 he specifically talks of revelatory gifts, and the entire context is about revelation. You change the context and introduce another subject which he never was talking about in the first place. You ignore the Greek. The gender of teleios is neuter; ekklesia is feminine.
Why are you so hung up on tongues! Tongues has not been brought up in the last 10 post on this thread! I have stated what I believe and backed it up with scriptures! You deny that it is talking to God! YOu say that I ignore what I have already admitted..that it is a language that the speaker himself does not know!You ignore the fact that every time "tongues" is used it means a real foreign language that can be understood, that needs an interpreter. But you speak gibberish. It is not a language. You don't understand it. Neither do you have an interpreter. That in itself should tell you it is wrong.
You didn't prove anything. You gave your opinion.No, context shows what it is and this was discussed and I showed with scriptures on another thread!
I expounded the entire passage on the other thread going through every verse of the passage. I know what it teaches.
Besides that, it is not your belief here that matters. You are basing doctrine on a hypothetical. So what if you think I would be blaspheming... Think it all you want. It is not my belief and the very idea that you can scare or bully me into thinking that I could be condemned for speaking against your beliefs is both laughable and ludicrous. Believe me. I have no worries. You need to be more concerned for yourself than for me. It is you I am concerned about.
1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.Speaking to God is prayer! Giving thanks is prayer!
--This is a rebuke. He was telling them not to do it. It is as if you don't understand the English language. You just don't seem to get it.
He that speaks to dogs, speaks not unto men but God can understand him. No other man understand him, but in the spirit he speaks mysteries, because all dog language is mystery.
Paul is not telling you to speak to God in dog language or in any other language. He is not telling you to pray. He is not telling you to speak to him in another language. He is not telling you to pray. He is not telling you to speak gibberish. This verse teaches you to keep silent.
Paul never teaches one or condones private prayer in tongues.
The overall context is spiritual gifts--chapters 12-14.Context of that chapter is love and maturity!
"I would not have you ignorant brethren concerning spiritual gifts." (1Cor.12:1)
The last verse before chapter 13:
1 Corinthians 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
Better than all the gifts put together is the gift of love. There are no chapter divisions in the original. He is still speaking about spiritual gifts. He continues on love until verse 7, and then changes topics:
1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
--Now he zooms in on revelatory gifts in particular. He has spoken about all the gifts in general in chapter 12, the gift of love in 13:1-7, and now he specifically speaks of revelatory gifts from 13:8 to the end of chapter 14. The subject is "revelation."
I mentioned at least three of the gifts very specifically. Out of them you chose to bring up the subject of tongues. So, who is hung up on tongues?? You can answer that question for yourself. The thread is about the errors of the Charismatic movement. One of the greatest errors of the Charismatic movement is their fraud, lies and hypocrisy; their claims to do things which they cannot do--miracles, healings, speaking in foreign languages. That is what I mentioned. You can't do any one of these but claim all of them are operable. In any other court of law one would be indicted for fraud.Why are you so hung up on tongues! Tongues has not been brought up in the last 10 post on this thread! I have stated what I believe and backed it up with scriptures! You deny that it is talking to God! YOu say that I ignore what I have already admitted..that it is a language that the speaker himself does not know!
No! I thought my answer was clear that it was in every area!Unless I misunderstood you. Did you mean by "board" Baptist Board?
How many times do I have to post...I do not believe the above. Why do you post them over and over...Even if you didn't, all across the entire spectrum of evangelicalism there are no believers that:
deny the trinity,
require either baptism or tongues for salvation,
deny the atonement,
believe we are all little gods.
Because if they do, they are not saved. They are outside "evangelicalism" and yet at the same time inside the Charismatic Movement where you are.
I do believe in the trinity
I do not believe you have to be baptized or speak in tongues in order to be saved.
I do not deny the atonement!
I do not believe we are little gods!
You know what you were taught they teach! I believed what I was taught for years too! But man gets it wrong sometimes! 80% of the preachers that I have come across over the years have changed their beliefs on things they once did or did not believe.You didn't prove anything. You gave your opinion.
I expounded the entire passage on the other thread going through every verse of the passage. I know what it teaches.
I am glad you have a peace about that!Besides that, it is not your belief here that matters. You are basing doctrine on a hypothetical. So what if you think I would be blaspheming... Think it all you want. It is not my belief and the very idea that you can scare or bully me into thinking that I could be condemned for speaking against your beliefs is both laughable and ludicrous. Believe me. I have no worries. You need to be more concerned for yourself than for me. It is you I am concerned about.
Where do you come up with this stuff?1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
--This is a rebuke. He was telling them not to do it. It is as if you don't understand the English language. You just don't seem to get it.
He that speaks to dogs, speaks not unto men but God can understand him. No other man understand him, but in the spirit he speaks mysteries, because all dog language is mystery.
I have been over and over this with you...Paul says praying in the spirit is praying in tongues..vs. 14.Paul is not telling you to speak to God in dog language or in any other language. He is not telling you to pray. He is not telling you to speak to him in another language. He is not telling you to pray. He is not telling you to speak gibberish. This verse teaches you to keep silent.
Paul never teaches one or condones private prayer in tongues.
No, the error is correcting HOW things are to be done! Not forbidding as you keep on suggesting! Because he is clear in verse 39!The overall context is spiritual gifts--chapters 12-14.
"I would not have you ignorant brethren concerning spiritual gifts." (1Cor.12:1)
The last verse before chapter 13:
1 Corinthians 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
Better than all the gifts put together is the gift of love. There are no chapter divisions in the original. He is still speaking about spiritual gifts. He continues on love until verse 7, and then changes topics:
1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
--Now he zooms in on revelatory gifts in particular. He has spoken about all the gifts in general in chapter 12, the gift of love in 13:1-7, and now he specifically speaks of revelatory gifts from 13:8 to the end of chapter 14. The subject is "revelation."
I mentioned at least three of the gifts very specifically. Out of them you chose to bring up the subject of tongues. So, who is hung up on tongues?? You can answer that question for yourself. The thread is about the errors of the Charismatic movement. One of the greatest errors of the Charismatic movement is their fraud, lies and hypocrisy; their claims to do things which they cannot do--miracles, healings, speaking in foreign languages. That is what I mentioned. You can't do any one of these but claim all of them are operable. In any other court of law one would be indicted for fraud.
This alone should have you concerned.You know what you were taught they teach! I believed what I was taught for years too! But man gets it wrong sometimes! 80% of the preachers that I have come across over the years have changed their beliefs on things they once did or did not believe.
"Man gets it wrong sometimes."
Yes, they certainly do. So why are you so certain that you are right?
The doctrines that you believe in, no one else believed in until 1905.
Before that time they were found only in paganism.
But now you say, "Man gets it wrong sometimes."
You pit your one segment of "Christianity" for the last 100 years vs. all of Orthodox Christianity for the last 2,000 years, and come to the conclusion that all of history is wrong. How can that be? How can everyone before the 20th century be totally wrong on this subject and you be write.
I agree, that "man sometimes gets it wrong," but not all men, in all nations, in all generations, for 1900 years since the time of Christ. NO, that can't be!
I hope you will consider that more carefully.
THe doctrine that I believe in started in Acts and will continue until Christ returns!This alone should have you concerned.
"Man gets it wrong sometimes."
Yes, they certainly do. So why are you so certain that you are right?
The doctrines that you believe in, no one else believed in until 1905.
Before that time they were found only in paganism.
But now you say, "Man gets it wrong sometimes."
You pit your one segment of "Christianity" for the last 100 years vs. all of Orthodox Christianity for the last 2,000 years, and come to the conclusion that all of history is wrong. How can that be? How can everyone before the 20th century be totally wrong on this subject and you be write.
I agree, that "man sometimes gets it wrong," but not all men, in all nations, in all generations, for 1900 years since the time of Christ. NO, that can't be!
I hope you will consider that more carefully.
I can post the URLs where you agreed or admitted that this movement started in 1905.THe doctrine that I believe in started in Acts and will continue until Christ returns!
I can post the URLs where you have stated that for at least 1800 years the Church so grieved the Holy Spirit that they pushed back this teaching of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and just now it is being "re-discovered."
I can post the URL's where you have agreed with me in my post above that you don't believe the Church had this so-called baptism of the Spirit or exercised the gifts of the Spirit for 1800 years.
Therefore your statement on this post is false. It is not an accurate reflection of what you believe.
I do believe man's unbelief has hindered the manifestation of the Holy Spirit! But I never agreed to the fact that they have stopped! It was not God's plan for man to fall into unbelief concerning this!I can post the URLs where you agreed or admitted that this movement started in 1905.
I can post the URLs where you have stated that for at least 1800 years the Church so grieved the Holy Spirit that they pushed back this teaching of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and just now it is being "re-discovered."
I can post the URL's where you have agreed with me in my post above that you don't believe the Church had this so-called baptism of the Spirit or exercised the gifts of the Spirit for 1800 years.
Therefore your statement on this post is false. It is not an accurate reflection of what you believe.
You believe "man's unbelief" for 1800 years, has hindered the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Correct?I do believe man's unbelief has hindered the manifestation of the Holy Spirit! But I never agreed to the fact that they have stopped! It was not God's plan for man to fall into unbelief concerning this!
And that is the reason we don't find any evidence of it in history. Right?
I do not believe it ever stopped! I believe man was taught wrong (unbelief)! I also believe that it has happened in history. Just because you do not read about it in history books does not mean it NEVER happened. It is happening right now and we do not hear about it!You believe "man's unbelief" for 1800 years, has hindered the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Correct?
And that is the reason we don't find any evidence of it in history. Right?
So, monkeys inhabit the planet of Pluto, we just don't hear about it?I do not believe it ever stopped! I believe man was taught wrong (unbelief)! I also believe that it has happened in history. Just because you do not read about it in history books does not mean it NEVER happened. It is happening right now and we do not hear about it!
That is the philosophy you take here.
You can claim anything you want, and as ludicrous as you want; and "it is happening right now and we do not hear about it."
That is why some children believe that brown cows produce chocolate milk.
It happens now, you just don't see it; but awaken will affirm it to be so.
Maybe he tells them that rabbits reproduce through eggs. Awaken affirms it to be true. Children don't see it; It must be true. He points to the evidence on every department store of Easter bunnies and Eggs and has the children convinced. Rabbits reproduce through eggs.
Whatever you say Awaken!
"We do not hear about it."
We do not hear about it because there is no evidence that what happens today in the modern Charismatic movement has ever happened in all of history except in paganism itself, from which it originated.