if the pope dies

"So please correct me if I am wrong: in order to be saved one must have correct understanding and interpretation of EVERYTHING that is taught in Scripture. "

Your comeback was not at all unexpected. Your solution to the problem is unworkable. (that some things are less important than others). I see hope that the three wise men ended up in heaven (though I do not know for sure) even though it is not likely that they knew of Jesus death on the cross and resurrection. They were not Jews. But they did act in faith on the knowledge that they had. On the light they had recieved. They did not reject the resurrection, they simply did not know of it. They may well have gone home and told others of Jesus birth, who believed them and these people may have lived after the resurrection. They may well not have known. God is the judge of the light that they have recieved. But I cannot say because I can see that they may have gone to heaven that believe in the resurrection is not neccessary. I have recieved it and can never turn from it under pain of eternal punishment. Those who hear the words must follow them or they become void of their meaning. Mental excercises or debate fodder. Those who recieve them and recieve the grace to know them must follow them.
"to whom much is given much will be required. The one who does not know will recieve the lesser punishment" Luke 12. Those who have not recieved this grace will have God as their judge and I cannot say he won't be merciful, for I am not the judge. Neither can I say what grace and light anyone has recieved. Thus I cannot judge them (though I can judge their actions and doctrine), but can examine myself.

Hope that helps.

 

Neal, This may not apply to you, as perhaps it was DHK who had a problem with the way Catholics differentiate between a "doctrine " and a "discipline".

When you wrote::

Would you have a problem if Catholics labelled these "more foundational, more important, or more basic that are fudamental (sic) to the faith" items as doctrine and some of the other less than fundamental items as disciplines?

My apologies again if it doesn't apply to your previous position as again it may be DHK's but it did seem like a good opportunity to further the point. In that case you were a means to an end . (please note : said in jest).
God Bless

 

For completeness sake I would like to mention that the Dutch city of Groesbeek is build on 7 hills. and I know of at least one other dutch city that shares this distinction.

 

Having actually lived in Rome for a while, I would like to note that the Vatican is mostly a touristattraction with all the museums and postoffices. It is not actually or spiritually either a city or a church.
The upper management of a large church runs the place as a sovereign country, but that's not the same.

 

mioque Said

That is strange. That large church is The Catholic Church and the upper management is The pope and his cardinals. IT IS THEIR HEADQUARTERS. They have ambassadors their from many countries. It is more than what you are saying. Please be truthful.

 

Jailminister,

If I am reading you correctly, you are right that the Vatican is a political as well as a quasi-spiritual movement. It is my understanding that the Vatican has political representatives to every nation on earth.

Some people think, rightly or wrongly, that when John F. Kennedy withdrew the air coverage for the freedom nationals who invaded Cuba, that the Pope was behind the scene like a puppeteer manipulating the strings. And we know how loyal Catholics are to their spiritual papa. As some of you have thought Kennedy was 'popped' partically because he tried to get us out of Vietnam and the military establishment wanted to keep the military arms moving and the production line of the money side moving with momentum. I do agree that we should have got out of Vietnam as former President Kennedy tried to accomplish before we lost our president by assassination.

As I recall Pope John Paul was not in favor of the liberating of the Iraqi people in our most recent war. Peace at any cost and in the name of God.

Revelation chapter 17 & 18 point out that the Catholic church is spiritual Babylon; the church that is drunk with the blood of the martyrs, the one who reigns over the kings of the earth. [Revelation 17:6 & 18]

 

Ray, you probably don't really want to know what I believe about the Kennedy Clan. But just to give you a little teaser, this country has gone to pot since we elected our first catholic president. Check it out and it will be mind boggling.

 

Some minds are easy to boggle it seems. Do tell what this list of calamities directly attributable to a Catholic president are. Tell me, why couldn't these protestant presidents we have had since along with a predominatly protestant congress turn things around with all this truth that they posess. Surely a Baptist like Clinton would have fixed things right up. Or have things really taken a turn for the worst with a Baptist in office. Anti-Catholic biggorty lives on it seems.

Blessings

 

Exactly. Show me where I said I agreed with T2U's post.

In Christ,
Neal

 

No, not really. So we have to have perfect knowledge of what we have been given, right? So you have perfect knowledge of the Scripture's, because you have them, right? Do you see what you are doing? You are adding all kinds of requirements to the gospel. Never mind that your response is null and void, because I believe in OSAS. Just because I say it is not necessary for my salvation does not mean I don't believe it. So no, I am not really following you. Sorry!

Please, I know you may not have much time (I know I don't but I still use it all up here), but address the various issues I brought up in one of my posts (Rom. 8:24, etc.) when you get a chance. Thanks!

In Christ,
Neal

 

Where does this distinction come from? Why is my understanding wrong if it is just given a different name under the Catholic system?

I think it was DHK, because I don't remember having that conversation. But anyway, at least I was some use to someone! And I am labeled anti-Catholic! Hah!

In Christ,
Neal

 

Why don't we leave that up to God?

In Christ,
Neal

 

Does this include the first 30+ popes who were martyred for their witness (martus) to Jesus Christ?

 

Hi massdak,

You didn't answer my question.

guess you think peter was a pope

If we define pope as Jesus Christ's prime minister, then yes, I do.

do you also think the Lord was a pope too?

No, Jesus Christ is the King in the Kingdom. All of his ministers speak and act with his authority on his authority.

 

Thessalonian, This is so deep and so long, but I will try to explain it in the shortest form as I can.
Kennedy, the first Catholic,(This country was formed in rebellion to the terror the catholic church gave to the Christian faith)was elected by a narrow margin in 1960. He took the oath of office in 1961. Let's remember that in 1954 This country put "In God we Trust" on our money and as our motto but what happened between 1954 and 1962. Kennedy is elected. what is the big deal about 1962? I am glad you asked. In 1962 we lost prayer in school followed by no bibles in schools. Alsoread the following. Some of it sounds good but when you examine what was done and the results since then, then you may think differently.

The pope was man of the year. Jesus Said himself that the world would hate us, yet the world loves the pope. Something is not right about that. That pope started the ecumenical movement to bring all of the splinter groups of the catholic church back together.
We then had the rebellious years of the ungodly music , long hair and drugs. In 1972, we started legally killing babies. We have had God taken out of our society thru politically motivated federal judges. We have sodomy recognized as ok. The militant feminist have tried to destroy the family and along with the sodomites are being fairly successful. We are now invovled with world wide terrorist attacking this nation. It is all linked back to 1960. We forgot our roots and forsook our God. We now are reaping what we sowed.

Edited to remove uncited, copyrighted material.Replaced with link.

[ October 04, 2003, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

That was already done in 1854 and 1950 and during the First Vatican Council (and a case could be made for the Second Vatican Council as well).

 

Jailminister
I'm more thruthfull than you think, in a country smaller in size than many openair museums, there are 2 postoffices and more sightseeing locations than government buildings.
There isn't any space to fit in those ambassadors you mention, those all life in Italy. Their primary job often being the ambassador to that sovereign nation and maintaining ties with the Vatican on the side.

And you and I both know that I wasn't hiding the fact that that major church I mentioned is the Catholic one.

Next time you want to show a map of the vatican, try digging up a usefull one, the one you showed was rather pointless.