if the pope dies

Better read that post above yours about the hard work , Christ did all the work nessesary , we only walk according to His will in them .

 

Angelforchrist
I was only experimenting with the sort of questionable debating techniques that are common on this section of this board.

 

Hi Ray,

Catholicism makes you work for your Christianization.

You are incorrect. Catholicism teaches that justification is a free gift from God, not from works, lest man boast.

Protestantism asks the Christian to trust in the Lord.

Yet, another truth Protestantism has inherited from Catholicism.

Carson, start trusting in Jesus, and not the church, and you will find inner peace and rest as promised in Hebrews 4:9-10.

I trust in Jesus through fides qua and in his truth as expounded by his Church through fides quae, and in doing so, I have already found this inner peace and rest as a child of God.

By the way, do you have any stored up merits, brother Weber?

Nope. I have nothing to offer the Lord of my own works. My own works could never, in my wildest dreams, merit heaven. At the most, they would merit natural goods, but even then, the smallest sin merits deternal damnation.

I don't need any because Christ is my merit and only hope of being with Him in Heaven.

Ditto.

Ray, I would encourage you to study Catholic doctrine before you start lighting fire to the straw men you've constructed through misinformation.

 

Christ did all the work nessesary , we only walk according to His will in them.

In all actuality, it isn't you who are walking, but Christ in you, your hope of glory. Any virtue you express is not of your own life principle but that of Christ who works in you as the vine gives life to its branches.

This false separation between Christ and man, which results from the separation between justification and sanctification has resulted in a form of Protestant Pelagianism, ironically.

 

Massdak,

Do you believe that Martin Luther was saved by grace and responded faithfully to the gospel call?

 

Massdak
Catholicism has survived many a crisis that makes a pope signing up with the SBC a minor embarrassment.
Maybe the next pope will, dig up JPII's corpse and put it on trial, or..
let his favorite highclass prostitute write the encyclicals, or..
develop a nice cocaine habit, or..
make war on Italy using an army of Dutch volunteers dressed up as Moslims.

 

Massdak
Catholicism has survived many a crisis that makes a pope signing up with the SBC a minor embarrassment.
Maybe the next pope will, dig up JPII's corpse and put it on trial, or..
let his favorite highclass prostitute write the encyclicals, or..
develop a nice cocaine habit, or..
make war on Italy using an army of Dutch volunteers dressed up as Moslims.
All of the previous has indeed happened.

 

Carson Weber,

One of the reasons why God chose the Apostle Paul was because of his adherence to the Old Covenant Law. Paul tells us that ' . . . as touching the righteousness which is in the Law, {he was} blameless.' [Philippians 3:6] Saul's 'good works' in his own view was impeccable, and to some degree must have impressed the Lord as far as his human effort to please Jehovah God. But, his good works were sufficient to save his soul, then Christ would have died in vain. And so two verses later Paul says, that he wanted ' . . . to be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the Law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.' In other words, Paul's good works were not sufficient to secure his salvation; the apostle trusted in the righteousness which he appropriated for himself, due to his confidence in what Jesus did on the Cross for him. [I Corinthians 15:3]

This is why we say that faith trusts in Christ [John 3:16] and rests in His love [Hebrews 4:9-10] and saving benefits.

Carson, you recently said, 'Faith works' and you have a proclivity toward leaning heavily on the Book of James. In James writings he is emphasizing that if you have a saving faith you will produce 'good works.'

Catholicism has erred by teaching her people that you must satisfy holy God by faith plus good works. One wonders if the clientele of the Roman Catholic Church cleaves more to good works or faith in Christ. If some of you are trusting in your good works, you are placing yourselves again under the Law. But, even if you perfectly kept the Law it would not secure your final salvation. Producing 'merits' and obeying the rules of the church turns God's righteousness into a tattered mantle of uselessness.

I see you said, that the Catholic church believes in justification . . . It sounds good on the board, but then what are all the prayers for the dead and 'prayer cards' handed out after a Catholic dies? I guess this is a last ditch effort 'works' to try to pray that one out of Purgatory. This is a million miles away from Biblical and Christ honoring justification. Now you see why Luther was so excited and why Lutheranism grew so quickly.

 

i am sorry but i have never really dug deep into the doctrinal beliefs of martin luther, but let me say this if he believed in Christ alone by faith alone then he certainly was saved by Grace alone correct? </font>[/QUOTE]So, even though Lutheranism is the largest Protestant denomination in the world, and the Reformation is pretty much the most significant event in Christianity in the last 1000 years at least, you don't know what he believes? Lutherans have sacraments, believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, and believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

My question is, why so much attention on condemning the pope when there are so many Lutherans that "need to be saved"? Why have you not bothered to look into the most significant person of the Reformation to see what his beliefs are? You seem pretty lopsided if you want to spread the Gospel to those who "don't have it," but you only focus on the Catholics and their doctrinal leader.

 

You believe that sacraments are "works," but Luther kepts two sacraments, and even in some of his writings, beleived that Confession was a sacrament. He believed that Baptism was necessary for salvation, and believed in infant baptism.

Why defend Luther when he apparently still believes in "works salvation." That is, until you begin to understand that the sacraments are not works. But if you believe that they are, then Luther is hardly a model to follow.

 

You believe that sacraments are "works," but Luther kepts two sacraments, and even in some of his writings, beleived that Confession was a sacrament. He believed that Baptism was necessary for salvation, and believed in infant baptism.

Why defend Luther when he apparently still believes in "works salvation." That is, until you begin to understand that the sacraments are not works. But if you believe that they are, then Luther is hardly a model to follow. </font>[/QUOTE]Lutherans have three sacraments or two, if you consider absolution (or repentance) as being connected to Baptism rather a separate sacrament. “And here you see that Baptism, both in its power and signification, comprehends also the third Sacrament, which has been called repentance, as it is really nothing else than Baptism.” Luther's Large Catechism

Yes, Baptism is necessary and it confers salvation by faith alone; but it is not absolutely necessary, "the word of God is the greatest, most necessary, and most sublime part in Christendom--for the sacraments cannot exist without the word, but indeed the word can exist without the sacraments, and in an emergency one could be saved without the sacraments (as for example, those who die before receiving the desired baptism) but not without the word." Martin Luther

The Lutheran view is that those who believe that the sacraments are works do not truly believe in justification by faith alone, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." Mark 16:16.

 

Hi Ray,

I encourage you to take both of your hands off of your two ears and listen up.

Catholis do not believe in a system of salvation by works. Understood?

Carson, you recently said, 'Faith works' and you have a proclivity toward leaning heavily on the Book of James. In James writings he is emphasizing that if you have a saving faith you will produce 'good works.'

Amen and Amen.

Catholicism has erred by teaching her people that you must satisfy holy God by faith plus good works.

You are incorrect. I repeat, Catholics do not believe in salvation by works. I repeat, nothing we could ever do could ever merit heaven. I repeat again, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOES NOT TEACH THAT WE MUST SATISFY HOLY GOD BY FAITH PLUS GOOD WORKS. We can't satisfy God by our works. I repeat, we can't satisfy God by our morality. I repeat again, we can't satisfy God by being good people in any way whatsoever. We are in dire need of a saviour. We need a redeemer. We need a God-man who can merit heaven for us and become the justice of God for us. We need God's pure and free gift of salvation.

If some of you are trusting in your good works, you are placing yourselves again under the Law. But, even if you perfectly kept the Law it would not secure your final salvation.

RAY, WE DO NOT TRUST IN OUR GOOD WORKS; WE DO NOT BELIEVE THAT WE ARE SAVED BY KEEPING THE LAW. WE DO NOT BELIEVE THAT WE ARE SAVED BY WORKS OF THE LAW. WE DO NOT BELIEVE THAT WE CAN MERIT SALVATION BY OUR WORKS.

The seventh chapter of the Council of Trent, which covers the essence and causes of justification says that "its single formal cause is the justice of God, not that by which he himself is just, but that by which he makes us just, a gift by which we are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and are not only accounted, but are truly called, and are, just."

Did you catch that? The single, the only, the one and only, the one, the single, the one, the only, the only and one SINGLE FORMAL CAUSE OF JUSTIFICATION IS THE JUSTICE OF GOD. ONLY GOD'S JUSTICE IS OUR JUSTIFICATION. WE HAVE NO JUSTIFICATION OTHER THAN HIS JUSTICE WHICH IS GIVEN TO US. Period. Period. Period.

Trent presents justification itself as purely the gift of God. This is put in the clearest light by the eighth chapter, on the necessity of faith and the absolute gratuitousness of justification: "When the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, his words are to be understood in the sense ever held and expressed by the consensus of the Catholic Church; which is, that we are said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, and without it it is impossible to please God (Hb 11:6) and attain to the communion of his sons; yet we are said to be justified freely, because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. As the Apostle says, 'If it is of grace, it is not now by works, otherwise grace is no more grace' (Rom 11:6)'."

The importance of this passage scarcely needs emphasizing. Nothing could bring out more clearly that Catholic doctrine itself, as defined at Trent, does not admit salvation by faith and works, if by that is meant works that are not themselves the product of saving grace received by faith. On the contrary, the profound assertion of the total causality of grace in salvation requires that both the good works following on grace and the faith that recives it are its product. The Catholic not only may, but must, in virtue of his own faith, give a full and unreserved adherence to the sola gratia understood in the positive sense that was upheld by the Protestant reformers.

Now Ray, do you understand? Are you listening?

[ October 05, 2003, 11:31 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

Carson Weber,

I hear what you are saying.

My question is if you never again went to your church, never again received the Eucharist, never again made your confessions to your priest, never again read your Bible, would you go to Heaven eventually? {of course after Purgatory}

Would your earlier faith in Jesus save your soul?

Ray

 

mioque said :

So basically then you return ad hominem attacks against people who share beliefs as a whole rather than dealing with individuals who may or may not have slighted you . Did you miss the verse about returning evil for evil and please tell me what my sin was against you ?

Like I have stated to other Roman Catholics who speak with that attitude , you do far more harm than good with your own words to others about the Spirit you carry by your own mouth , because out of the mouth the heart speaks .

Tell me why I would want to be a part of any church whose adhearants regularly talk to others like they are small ignorant children with no sense? Where will you get with an air of superiority instead of a humble heart desiring to seek Gods truth with others?

I think many need to ask themselves what their motives are , are they testifying with love to seek to share the truth , or are they here with a haughty spirit intend on claiming their church does no wrong and they will roll all over others reguardless of the cost and get personal without merit or cause and literally be rude beyond belief?

Here is more on the earlier verse I posted and you replied to ,also remember that Roman Catholism is the LARGEST "church" that claims christinity in the world.

Matthew 7
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?

Is ones fruit arrogance and a haughty spirit? Or is ones fruit love and patience and gentleness of Spirit?

 

Carson writes:

Im sorry , but that truth I learned from the calling of the Holy Spirit and the bible , I didnt even know what catholisism was at the time. Does this claim mean you believe the bible and truth of God was only here because of the RCC?

God testified to himself to us long before the RCC existed .

 

If you are saved by faith in Jesus Christ then how can you be unsaved or lose salvation.

In 1 Peter 1:4 the word for "reserved" is tethrhmevnhn. That word is in a perfect participle. The perfect participle puts the emphasis on the existing result. The nature of the case will be antecedent to the time of the leading verb, but the state that has resulted from that past action will be contemporaneous with the leading verb.

The point is that the emphasiss is on the existing result and will etend from the past tense and coincide with the present tense of the leading verb.

It is the idea that the inheritance was reserved and is reserved.

If that isn't OSAS then what is it?

A genune saving faith in Jesus Christ is salvation. Salvation is not dependentsecured by me but by Christ. He is our salvation. Scripture says in Prov. 24:16, "For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again, But the wicked stumble in time of calamity."

Abraham was declared righteous and fell a number of times.

"sozo in Romans 8:24 is first person, plural, aorist, passive, indicative"

The aorist indicative has action in past time. It is punctiliar. The indicative signifies an affirmation of reality. The pasive voice would indicate that the subject of the verb ius receiving the action in the verb. It is the idea, "we have been saved."

In 1 Cor 9 Paul is talking about his right as an apostle. Later in verses 24-27 he uses the picture of the Isthmus games and the competiton. He is talking about running in the race of life to win an imperishable wreath. Earlier in 1 Cor he talks about the rewards of a faithful life and the works that accompany that kind of life. It is to be gold, silver and precious stones and not wood, hay and stubble.

 

AngelforChrist
"So basically then you return ad hominem attacks against people who share beliefs as a whole rather than dealing with individuals who may or may not have slighted you ."
Around here in this section of the board? Absolutely

"please tell me what my sin was against you ?"
This is the Us vs. Them section of the baptistboard. Us, being the baptists and in a broader sense all branches of christianity started during or after the Reformation vs. Them, being Roman Catholicism and the other pre-reformation branches of christianity.
I am part of Us, I'm a baptist. However because of the inane (and sometimes even fraudulent) nonsense that is the basis of the anti-catholic polemic going on here I'm always forced into the Them camp when I participate.
In my bleaker moments I can assure you that you have sinned greatly against me.
My bleaker moments are thankfully very rare.

 

mioque , I am sorry that you consider anything us and them , because I am only on one side and thats Gods which is the side of truth as the goal .

As far as even in your bleaker moments me sinning against you , considering my post above was the first time ive ever spoken to you , im confused about how that could be . I am also baptist so that whole paragraph made no sense to me as to why you attack me because of what you claimed? All people deserve respect and painting charicatures of people because they share a common belief system doesnt make them all act the same .