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If the Roman Catholic Church is so bad...
- Thread starter jay29
- Start date
Eliyahu
"In a certain sense, Rome has been quite successful in destroying all the record of the true believers but there are some records supporting the true history."
"
Interestingly enough religious texts written by adherents of most groups featured in Trail of Blood have survived to this day. At times like in the case of the Albigenses they contradict J.M. Carroll's view of those groups.
"In a certain sense, Rome has been quite successful in destroying all the record of the true believers but there are some records supporting the true history."
"
Interestingly enough religious texts written by adherents of most groups featured in Trail of Blood have survived to this day. At times like in the case of the Albigenses they contradict J.M. Carroll's view of those groups.
No Christian group, including Catholics and Orthodox, deny the truth of those words. The real issue is: how is that salvation through Christ Jesus appropriated to the individual?
HankD posted...
From the council of Trent...
"CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."
From the word of God....
For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith. And that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast."
"But now the rightiousness of God apart from the Law is revealed, being witnesed by the Law and the Prophets. Even the rightiousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe."
The other most crippling error being of course the devilish falsehood that the Catholic must heed the scriptural interpretations of the Teaching Majesterium of the Hierarchy, rather than turn to the scriptures with only the Holy Spirit as their guide.
The Catholic Church MUST not allow their people to turn to the scriptures themselves as God desires and admonishes us to do, because it would mean the Churchs falsehood would be exposed.
Sadly,
Mike
And riverm replied...
The Catholics do deny those words. They believe their priest is also a mediator between them and God, as well as the supposed "Queen of the Universe" Mary, and also other saints who have passed on. Also trinkets, prayer beads, medals, little statues, etc etc etc.
And that is one of the 2 most crippling errors of Catholicism. The Catholic Church clearly proclaims justification by faith plus works.
From the council of Trent...
"CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."
From the word of God....
For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith. And that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast."
"But now the rightiousness of God apart from the Law is revealed, being witnesed by the Law and the Prophets. Even the rightiousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe."
The other most crippling error being of course the devilish falsehood that the Catholic must heed the scriptural interpretations of the Teaching Majesterium of the Hierarchy, rather than turn to the scriptures with only the Holy Spirit as their guide.
The Catholic Church MUST not allow their people to turn to the scriptures themselves as God desires and admonishes us to do, because it would mean the Churchs falsehood would be exposed.
Sadly,
Mike
Earlier I posted two Scripture:
When I was a boy, I was taught to pray to Mary in the same manner as to God without distinction.
Kneel before her statue, assume the position of prayer, make the sign of the cross, make your petition known to her, praise her, etc, make the sign of the cross and have faith that she hears and answers prayer.
In not so many words, this practice assigns deity, omnipresence and advocacy to her in that she simultaneously hears these millions of prayers and has the ability to grant the petitions to those whom she chooses.
HankD
To which Matt responded:
They affirm these truths in one breath then deny it in a different breath and by the practices taught to the laity.
The Fifth Marian Dogma is already a matter of practice.
When I was a boy, I was taught to pray to Mary in the same manner as to God without distinction.
Kneel before her statue, assume the position of prayer, make the sign of the cross, make your petition known to her, praise her, etc, make the sign of the cross and have faith that she hears and answers prayer.
In not so many words, this practice assigns deity, omnipresence and advocacy to her in that she simultaneously hears these millions of prayers and has the ability to grant the petitions to those whom she chooses.
Through the dispensing of the Seven Sacraments via the sacerdotal priesthood and especially the "sacrifice of the Mass".
HankD
Well, I notice now that I left some things out of my last post that I meant to include
What I included were 2 scriptures, of the hundreds, that make clear that we are justified through faith alone.
But I only included one evidence that the Catholic Church places its curse on this foundational truth, and replaces it with the very false gospel that God curses in Galaciens.
Justification through faith plus works.
Here are the three that I intended to post...
CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.
CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.
"CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."
And of course, God declares...
"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith. And that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast."
"But now the rightiousness of God apart from the Law is revealed, being witnesed by the Law and the Prophets. Even the rightiousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe."
Sadly,
Mike
Catholic cursings
What I included were 2 scriptures, of the hundreds, that make clear that we are justified through faith alone.
But I only included one evidence that the Catholic Church places its curse on this foundational truth, and replaces it with the very false gospel that God curses in Galaciens.
Justification through faith plus works.
Here are the three that I intended to post...
CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.
CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.
"CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."
And of course, God declares...
"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith. And that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast."
"But now the rightiousness of God apart from the Law is revealed, being witnesed by the Law and the Prophets. Even the rightiousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe."
Sadly,
Mike
Catholic cursings
And have you read the Joint Declaration on Justification by Faith? It puts both the anathemata of Trent and the Lutheran Book of Concord and Augsburg Confession in their proper contexts.
Then your quote should say what it means and mean what it says. Stanislaus Hosius was only 20 in 1524. He wasn't even ordained a priest until 1543 and didn't become a cardinal until 1561.
Didn't you read the link I gave you?
Didn't you read the link I gave you?
The following is from Catholic Site:
___________________________________________________________________________________________
On 25 July, 1550, Pope Julius III appointed him "Inquisitor hæreticæ pravitatis" for the neighbouring Diocese of Pomesania, which was rapidly turning Protestant. The enticing doctrines of Protestantism were also making alarming headway in the Diocese of Culm, and it was with great difficulty that Hosius succeeded in stemming their progress. His first pastoral letters show his deep concern for the preservation of the Catholic Faith among his flock; and his religious colloquies with some of the reformers at Thorn give testimony of his untiring zeal for the conversion of those who had already left the true fold. But the field of his activities was soon to be changed
As Bishop of Ermland Hosius devoted all his efforts to the maintenance of the Catholic religion in Poland. His great learning and wide experience, coupled with deep piety, made him the natural leader of the Polish episcopate in its struggle against Protestantism which was making deep inroads into Poland during the rule of the weak and vacillating King Sigismund II.
Immediately after the termination of the council, on 4 December, 1563, he returned to Ermland, where Protestantism had made considerable progress during his absence.
In this work Hosius acknowledges the force of the arguments of the Swiss theologians against the Trinitarians, but informs them that the same arguments may be used against themselves, and that the errors of the Trinitarians have their ultimate foundation in the heresy of Calvin.
The publication of his numerous letters has been begun by Hipler and Zakrzewski, vols. I and II (Cracow, 1879 and 1888). The letters in these two volumes cover a period of 33 years (1525-1558). Other letters are found among those of Peter Canisius, edited by Braunsberger (Freiburg, 1897-1905).
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
In the quotation there can be some difference of one year.
Hosius was appointed as INQUISITOR by the Pope Julius III, because RCC was afraid about Swarming Protestant Christians.
Their main interest was to torture and kil the true Christian believers by condemning them as "HERETICS"
If they were not afraid about the expansion and big success of protestant Christaianity at that time, why did they appoint the Inquisitors and tortured Protestant Christians as Heretics?
Could they not say as the wise Jewish scholar like this ? :
******
34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space
38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
********
I oppose to Mother of God, Infant Baptism, Papacy, Purgatory, Indulgence, etc. Do you think I could have survived at that time if I had lived that era?
If there had been no Holy Roman Catholic Church, the Gospel could have been preached far more fast in the world.
The place where there is Roman Catholic, either Slaughter of Human body or poverty, war, followed all the time.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
On 25 July, 1550, Pope Julius III appointed him "Inquisitor hæreticæ pravitatis" for the neighbouring Diocese of Pomesania, which was rapidly turning Protestant. The enticing doctrines of Protestantism were also making alarming headway in the Diocese of Culm, and it was with great difficulty that Hosius succeeded in stemming their progress. His first pastoral letters show his deep concern for the preservation of the Catholic Faith among his flock; and his religious colloquies with some of the reformers at Thorn give testimony of his untiring zeal for the conversion of those who had already left the true fold. But the field of his activities was soon to be changed
As Bishop of Ermland Hosius devoted all his efforts to the maintenance of the Catholic religion in Poland. His great learning and wide experience, coupled with deep piety, made him the natural leader of the Polish episcopate in its struggle against Protestantism which was making deep inroads into Poland during the rule of the weak and vacillating King Sigismund II.
Immediately after the termination of the council, on 4 December, 1563, he returned to Ermland, where Protestantism had made considerable progress during his absence.
In this work Hosius acknowledges the force of the arguments of the Swiss theologians against the Trinitarians, but informs them that the same arguments may be used against themselves, and that the errors of the Trinitarians have their ultimate foundation in the heresy of Calvin.
The publication of his numerous letters has been begun by Hipler and Zakrzewski, vols. I and II (Cracow, 1879 and 1888). The letters in these two volumes cover a period of 33 years (1525-1558). Other letters are found among those of Peter Canisius, edited by Braunsberger (Freiburg, 1897-1905).
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
In the quotation there can be some difference of one year.
Hosius was appointed as INQUISITOR by the Pope Julius III, because RCC was afraid about Swarming Protestant Christians.
Their main interest was to torture and kil the true Christian believers by condemning them as "HERETICS"
If they were not afraid about the expansion and big success of protestant Christaianity at that time, why did they appoint the Inquisitors and tortured Protestant Christians as Heretics?
Could they not say as the wise Jewish scholar like this ? :
******
34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space
38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
********
I oppose to Mother of God, Infant Baptism, Papacy, Purgatory, Indulgence, etc. Do you think I could have survived at that time if I had lived that era?
If there had been no Holy Roman Catholic Church, the Gospel could have been preached far more fast in the world.
The place where there is Roman Catholic, either Slaughter of Human body or poverty, war, followed all the time.
None of this is evidence for the veracity of your earlier 'quote' from Hosius.
It matters not what S. Hosius may or may not have said. It matters not what J.M. Carroll may or may not have said. We can make similiar statements about anyone who has written or said anything regarding history--particularly ecclessiastical(N.T. assembly) history. "Let God be true and every man a liar." Now what.
There is only one infallible source of information: The Word of God--sola scriptura. The traditions and commandents of men are not of equal authority with the Holy Writ--the 66 books.
Jesus is building His assembly--She has been through the gates of Hell, She is still here, without spot, wrinkle or any such thing--the pillar and ground of the Truth.
You probably will not find Her listed in the yellow pages nor on the religion page of the local paper. She is out there none the less. She has been faithful, through the fire and flood and near extinction. Jesus has preserved His Bride. She waits for His soon return.
Are you ready?
Selah,
Bro. James
There is only one infallible source of information: The Word of God--sola scriptura. The traditions and commandents of men are not of equal authority with the Holy Writ--the 66 books.
Jesus is building His assembly--She has been through the gates of Hell, She is still here, without spot, wrinkle or any such thing--the pillar and ground of the Truth.
You probably will not find Her listed in the yellow pages nor on the religion page of the local paper. She is out there none the less. She has been faithful, through the fire and flood and near extinction. Jesus has preserved His Bride. She waits for His soon return.
Are you ready?
Selah,
Bro. James
That's your personal preference, and I have no problem with that. But it's not a scriptural mandate, and you're critiquing the RCC on a matter that is a scriptural nonissue. For the purpose of this thread, I don't think this is an accurate or just critique. </font>[/QUOTE]A Scriptural non-issue? It is a Scriptural non-issue to critique a pastor/church for not taking every opportunity that they are given to proclaim the gospel (particularly to hurting people)?
"Go therefore and make disciple of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age (Matt. 28:19-20)."
In the Greek text the "Go" above is not a verb in the imperative as it is typically translated in our English Bibles. A better, and more accurate, translation would be "As you are going make disciples... (then continue on with the verse)." The original text carries with it the meaning that our disciple making (sharing the gospel) is to be an everyday way of life for us. We are commanded by the Lord to always be about making disciples (sharing the gospel) at every opportunity. It is a very valid critique.
Plus, I was pointing out the false RCC teaching about baptismal regeneration and the baptism of babies.
Scripture doesn't say "take every opportunity to proclaim the Gospel". It says "proclaim the Gospel". To critique a denomination because the Gospel message wasn't preached at a funeral according to you is an unwarranted critique. </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry John but you are wrong about that. The Bible does say just that and the original Greek makes it much more clear than our English translations.
In the Greek text (of Matt. 28:19) the "Go" above is not a verb in the imperative as it is typically translated in our English Bibles. A better, and more accurate, translation would be "As you are going make disciples... (then continue on with the verse)." The original text carries with it the meaning that our disciple making (sharing the gospel) is to be an everyday way of life for us. We are commanded by the Lord to always be about making disciples (sharing the gospel) at every opportunity. It is a very valid critique.
[ February 01, 2006, 03:53 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: (1 Peter 3:15)
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. (2 Timothy 4:2)
There are too many souls that are perishing--headed for a Christless eternity. I agree with Bible-Boy, we are to use every opportunity to present the gospel to the lost. Ever listen to the words of the Fanny Crosby hymn, "Rescue The Perishing"?
Rescue the perishing, care for the dying,
Snatch them in pity from sin and the grave;
Weep o’er the erring one, lift up the fallen,
Tell them of Jesus, the mighty to save.
Refrain
Rescue the perishing, care for the dying,
Jesus is merciful, Jesus will save.
Though they are slighting Him, still He is waiting,
Waiting the penitent child to receive;
Plead with them earnestly, plead with them gently;
He will forgive if they only believe.
Refrain
Down in the human heart, crushed by the tempter,
Feelings lie buried that grace can restore;
Touched by a loving heart, wakened by kindness,
Chords that were broken will vibrate once more.
Refrain
Rescue the perishing, duty demands it;
Strength for thy labor the Lord will provide;
Back to the narrow way patiently win them;
Tell the poor wand’rer a Savior has died.
Refrain
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. (2 Timothy 4:2)
There are too many souls that are perishing--headed for a Christless eternity. I agree with Bible-Boy, we are to use every opportunity to present the gospel to the lost. Ever listen to the words of the Fanny Crosby hymn, "Rescue The Perishing"?
Rescue the perishing, care for the dying,
Snatch them in pity from sin and the grave;
Weep o’er the erring one, lift up the fallen,
Tell them of Jesus, the mighty to save.
Refrain
Rescue the perishing, care for the dying,
Jesus is merciful, Jesus will save.
Though they are slighting Him, still He is waiting,
Waiting the penitent child to receive;
Plead with them earnestly, plead with them gently;
He will forgive if they only believe.
Refrain
Down in the human heart, crushed by the tempter,
Feelings lie buried that grace can restore;
Touched by a loving heart, wakened by kindness,
Chords that were broken will vibrate once more.
Refrain
Rescue the perishing, duty demands it;
Strength for thy labor the Lord will provide;
Back to the narrow way patiently win them;
Tell the poor wand’rer a Savior has died.
Refrain