If Total Depravity is true, why did Christ need to hide his message in parables?

[DHK]

These had been born of water even of the Spirit.

1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

No matter what you say, if one is not born again by the word of God, then he is not born again at all. The Word of God is the agent by which a person is born again. The Lord uses the Holy Spirit in addition to that as John 3:5 tells us.

John 1:12,13 tells us that receiving Christ by faith or believing on Him is absolutely imperative to be one of His children.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (John 1:12)
--How do you become a child of God (born again)?
You believe on his name! That is the answer in the verse.
It is asked and answered in the same verse.
God has given man a free will: whether to believe or not to believe on Christ. Man has that choice.

 

[Aaron]

1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

There's no difference between being born of the word and being born of the Spirit. They're one and the same simply viewed from different angles.

 

[kyredneck]

There's no difference between being born of the word and being born of the Spirit. They're one and the same simply viewed from different angles.

Ah, right, that is logos, as in Jn 1:1. I missed that (or forgotten). It is saying the same thing. Thanks.

[edit] Jas 1:18 is logos also; I missed that one too.

 

[kyredneck]

being begotten again, not out of seed corruptible, but incorruptible, through a word of God -- living and remaining -- to the age;

Still yet, I'm not convinced that this passage is referring to regeneration or the spiritual birth. It doesn't say 'born from above' as in Jn 3.

 

[psalms109:31]

Receiving the word

Without first receiving the word of life there is no chance for anyone being saved and this is what makes it so plain and simple and DHK has made it so plain.

Thank you DHK for such a pearl, I have been blessed.

 

[kyredneck]

1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

If this passage is referring to the spiritual birth from above, which I'm not convinced that it is, it is not from the preached word or from the written word, it is the living Word. Christ, the life giving Spirit.

No matter what you say, if one is not born again by the word of God, then he is not born again at all.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm supposing that what you mean here is belief of the gospel gets one born from above. If so, you have inserted the gospel into the context of Jn 3:5, and it ain't there. And it confines the Spirit to only wherever men may carry the gospel which is contradictory of the 8th verse, “the Spirit where he willeth doth blow. Man doesn't convey the Spirit. The Spirit goes wherever He wills. John 3:3-8 is about regeneration, not conversion. The consistent order given in the scripture is the spiritual birth first, then conversion.


Observe:

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn3:21

God has wrought in these prior to them 'coming to the light'. That's why they come to the light, because God has wrought. It's the spiritual birth first, then conversion.


Another (there's several once you acquire an eye for it):

Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Jn 1:47

An Israelite indeed Christ called him, and that before Nathanael had ever met Christ. Romans 2:29:

'but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.'

“Whose praise is not of men, but of God”. Christ praised Nathanael, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!”. It's the spiritual birth first, then conversion.


Another:

Christ commissioning the Twelve and sending them forth (Mt 10, Lk 10), He instructs them to go to the lost sheep (not goats) (as in Ezek 34), and search for those worthy, and for those sons of peace:

“...whatsoever city or village ye shall enter, search out who in it is worthy...”

“....if a son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon him....”

They were 'worthy sons of peace' prior to hearing and believing the gospel. It's the spiritual birth first, then conversion.


Another:

“He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......” Jn 3:36
“.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...” Jn5:24
“... He that believeth hath eternal life.” Jn 6:47

Those that believe have already been born from above and have eternal life. It's the spiritual birth first, then conversion.


Another:

....Cornelius...a devout man...that feared God...who gave much...and prayed... Acts 10:1,2

And that before Peter had ever preached the gospel to Cornelius. It's the spiritual birth first, then conversion.


Another:

for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2:13-15

Not 'the hearers' of the law, but 'the doers' of the law are just before God.

Ro 13:10:
“Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law”

Charitable Cornelius showed the work of the law written in his heart, as I'm certain multitudes of Gentiles that had not the law had done down through the ages before him. The Spirit blows where it wills.

The Word of God is the agent by which a person is born again.

The gospel is not the means by which man is born from above. It's the spiritual birth first, then conversion.

The Lord uses the Holy Spirit in addition to that as John 3:5 tells us.

IN ADDITION TO?!? WOW !! I wonder how many that hold to baptismal regeneration have said the same exact thing. The 'addition' here is your forcing of the gospel into v 5. Absolutely no different from them that force the passage to mean water baptism.

John 1:12,13 tells us that receiving Christ by faith or believing on Him is absolutely imperative to be one of His children.

V 13 is very plain that those that did receive Him had already been born of God, and contains a threefold denial of any human involvement in that birth. It's the spiritual birth first, then conversion.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (John 1:12)
--How do you become a child of God (born again)?
You believe on his name! That is the answer in the verse.
It is asked and answered in the same verse.
God has given man a free will: whether to believe or not to believe on Christ. Man has that choice.

A child of God by name or practically, not positionally. They were already His sheep, albeit lost sheep until now.

 

[DHK]

If this passage is referring to the spiritual birth from above, which I'm not convinced that it is, it is not from the preached word or from the written word, it is the living Word. Christ, the life giving Spirit.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23)
--It says one is born again by the Word of God. Plain and simple.
If you refuse to believe it that is up to you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm supposing that what you mean here is belief of the gospel gets one born from above. If so, you have inserted the gospel into the context of Jn 3:5, and it ain't there.

Yes it is there. I didn't insert anything. Jesus said very plainly that one must be born of water and of the Spirit. I very carefully went through the Scripture and demonstrated to you how water symbolizes the Word of God. It plainly says that in 1Pet.1:23 which you obviously reject, for no apparent reason. One is born again by the Word of God (the gospel) and the Holy Spirit. If these two agencies are not present, then he cannot be born again. It is that simple.

And it confines the Spirit to only wherever men may carry the gospel which is contradictory of the 8th verse, “the Spirit where he willeth doth blow. Man doesn't convey the Spirit. The Spirit goes wherever He wills.

The Spirit works through the Word of God. That is why we have missionaries, to take the Word of God to those who have it not, that the Holy Spirit may work that. Your premise is that a person in the deep dark reaches of Africa, having never heard the Word of God, can somehow mysteriously be regenerated by the Spirit of God, and without the Word of God be saved. That is pure hogwash!! That makes Calvinism border on heresy. It makes it a esoteric, mystical, type of gnosticism where no knowledge of Christ is necessary in order to be saved. That is heresy, my friend.

John 3:3-8 is about regeneration, not conversion. The consistent order given in the scripture is the spiritual birth first, then conversion.

That is just your opinion. I disagree. They take place at the same time. You can argue about this point all you want. I know it is the standard Calvinist response. But you won't convince me. It is not taught in the Word of God.

Observe:

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn3:21

So you believe in a works salvation??

God has wrought in these prior to them 'coming to the light'. That's why they come to the light, because God has wrought. It's the spiritual birth first, then conversion.

There are two things that are called "light" in the Bible.
1. The Word of God.
2. Jesus Christ.
The Word of God is the means by which we are saved, and Christ is the object of our faith. Our faith is in the Word of God which reveals the Christ in whom we believe, the Spirit convicting us of sin.
That is contrary to your works salvation which you have proposed out of John 3:21. Regeneration and salvation take place at the same time.

Another (there's several once you acquire an eye for it):

Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Jn 1:47

An Israelite indeed Christ called him, and that before Nathanael had ever met Christ.

This demonstrates Christ's omniscience and nothing more. So what is your point? That Christ is omniscient!

Romans 2:29:

'but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.'

Nice verse.

“Whose praise is not of men, but of God”. Christ praised Nathanael, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!”. It's the spiritual birth first, then conversion.

Too bad you didn't read or comprehend the entire passage. Nathaniel believed because he saw Christ's work and believed on him as the Messiah. His salvation was through belief; through faith.

Another:

Christ commissioning the Twelve and sending them forth (Mt 10, Lk 10), He instructs them to go to the lost sheep (not goats) (as in Ezek 34), and search for those worthy, and for those sons of peace:

“...whatsoever city or village ye shall enter, search out who in it is worthy...”

“....if a son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon him....”

They were 'worthy sons of peace' prior to hearing and believing the gospel. It's the spiritual birth first, then conversion.

It was simple instruction. They were to go to the Jews first, and then later they were to go to the Gentiles. Something is wrong if you can't see the simple historical context of those instructions. There is no: spiritual birth first and conversion second, even suggested there. You are deceived.

Another:

“He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......” Jn 3:36
“.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...” Jn5:24
“... He that believeth hath eternal life.” Jn 6:47

Those that believe have already been born from above and have eternal life. It's the spiritual birth first, then conversion.

That is not what these Scriptures say. They say that salvation is through believe. He that believeth has eternal life. It is so plain how can you miss it? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. This is the message that Jesus was given. There is no message of regeneration first and salvation second. It is all in your mind. You are blind to the truth.

Another:

....Cornelius...a devout man...that feared God...who gave much...and prayed... Acts 10:1,2

And that before Peter had ever preached the gospel to Cornelius. It's the spiritual birth first, then conversion.

Where do you get this from. Cornelius was a proselyte to Judaism. That doesn't make him regenerated, only devout and religious. When Peter came he heard the gospel, believed, and was saved. Regeneration and salvation happen at the same time. This is a good example to show that.

Another:

for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2:13-15

Not 'the hearers' of the law, but 'the doers' of the law are just before God.

Ro 13:10:
“Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law”

Charitable Cornelius showed the work of the law written in his heart, as I'm certain multitudes of Gentiles that had not the law had done down through the ages before him. The Spirit blows where it wills.

Read above. Cornelius was a proselyte to Judaism, and thus showed good works. That has nothing to do with regeneration. The law is written on every man's heart--saved and unsaved alike. You have demonstrated nothing with these verses.

The gospel is not the means by which man is born from above. It's the spiritual birth first, then conversion.

Your unbelief of 1Peter 1:23 is astounding.

IN ADDITION TO?!? WOW !! I wonder how many that hold to baptismal regeneration have said the same exact thing. The 'addition' here is your forcing of the gospel into v 5. Absolutely no different from them that force the passage to mean water baptism.

Catholics believe baptismal regeneration; I don't.
One is born again by the Word of God (1Pet.1:23) --in spite of your unbelief.
One is born again by the Spirit of God (John 3:5)
Both are necessary. The gospel is not forced into John 3:5; it is already there. That is what "water" represents as is indicated by John 15:3 and 1Pet. 1:23 and many other Scriptures.

V 13 is very plain that those that did receive Him had already been born of God, and contains a threefold denial of any human involvement in that birth. It's the spiritual birth first, then conversion.

You ignore vs. 12:
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (John 1:12)
Those that received Christ by believing on His name; those are the ones that became the children of God; those are the ones that were born of God. This is what the Scriptures teach.

A child of God by name or practically, not positionally. They were already His sheep, albeit lost sheep until now.

You have things backward. You enter into the family of God by believing in His son. First, you must enter through the door. Then you become one of his sheep.

 

[Winman]

“Whose praise is not of men, but of God”. Christ praised Nathanael, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!”. It's the spiritual birth first, then conversion.

Jesus said this before Nathanael believed, this argues against Total Depravity.

John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

FIRST, when Jesus saw Nathanael coming he said he was an Israelite indeed in whom is no guile (dishonest or deceptive).

AFTERWARD Jesus said that Nathanael believed because Jesus had seen him under the fig tree before his brother called him.

Jesus himself tells us why Nathanael believed. It was not until Jesus said he had seen Nathanael under the fig tree that Nathanael believed. Jesus said Nathanael had no guile BEFORE he believed. This argues against Total Depravity.

 

[kyredneck]

Jesus said this before Nathanael believed, this argues against Total Depravity....

No, it argues for regeneration before belief.

 

[Winman]

No, it argues for regeneration before belief.

I seemed to have missed that, where exactly do the scriptures say Nathanael was regenerated before he came to Jesus?

In fact, where do the scriptures ever say ANY person was regenerated before they believed?

Please list book, chapter, and verse, because I have never seen that in scripture anywhere.

Nothing vague please, I would like to see where this is said directly.