If we Are NOT Born Spiritual dead, than Why would the Holy Spirit Convict us of Sin?

[jimiam]

These parables are simple and easily understood unless a person holds a presupposition......

I could care less if the whole world agrees...........


Your above statements indicate the extent of your sencerity, yet the "whole world" hasn't been part of the flock since the fall. I do care brother, with whom the whole world agrees.
Certainly we must accept the words of Jesus, (correctly interpreted) as we accept the word of God in it's entirety. The key is in recognizing conflicts encountered. Thus we rightfully divide the word of truth. Ring a bell?? Try Eph. 2:3 and Psa. 51:5. We can each present scripture back and forth
for a lengthy time, however if it conflicts, then therein is the
issue with which to deal. Not your opinion, my opinion, nor Calvin, Augustine, or Jacobus Arminius and his followers.

 

[Winman]

These parables are simple and easily understood unless a person holds a presupposition......

I could care less if the whole world agrees...........


Your above statements indicate the extent of your sencerity, yet the "whole world" hasn't been part of the flock since the fall. I do care brother, with whom the whole world agrees.
Certainly we must accept the words of Jesus, (correctly interpreted) as we accept the word of God in it's entirety. The key is in recognizing conflicts encountered. Thus we rightfully divide the word of truth. Ring a bell?? Try Eph. 2:3 and Psa. 51:5. We can each present scripture back and forth
for a lengthy time, however if it conflicts, then therein is the
issue with which to deal. Not your opinion, my opinion, nor Calvin, Augustine, or Jacobus Arminius and his followers.

I read others, if I believe what they say correctly lines up with scripture, I will listen and learn. If it does not line up with scripture, I do not listen.

We are not born with Adam's sin, although we all suffer as a consequence of his sin. A drunk bus driver might drive off a cliff killing himself and all passengers on the bus. They suffer as a consequence of his sin, but they are not guilty of his sin.

In Eze 18:20 God said the son shall not bear the sins of his father. I don't care what Augustine, Calvin, Spurgeon, Wesley, or any other famous preacher or theologian says, I can easily understand what God is saying here. God does not hold you accountable for the sins of your father, THE SOUL THAT SINNETH, IT SHALL DIE. We die for our own sins, not Adam's.

 

[Alcott]

If we Are NOT Born Spiritual dead, than Why would the Holy Spirit Convict us of Sin?

But if we ARE... what good does it do to convict a dead man?

 

[jimiam]

I read others, if I believe what they say correctly lines up with scripture, I will listen and learn. If it does not line up with scripture, I do not listen.

We are not born with Adam's sin, although we all suffer as a consequence of his sin. A drunk bus driver might drive off a cliff killing himself and all passengers on the bus. They suffer as a consequence of his sin, but they are not guilty of his sin.

In Eze 18:20 God said the son shall not bear the sins of his father. I don't care what Augustine, Calvin, Spurgeon, Wesley, or any other famous preacher or theologian says, I can easily understand what God is saying here. God does not hold you accountable for the sins of your father, THE SOUL THAT SINNETH, IT SHALL DIE. We die for our own sins, not Adam's.

A great number of "I's" in this one, along with the inclusion of Wesley, and Spurgeon. (you little name dropper you)Perhaps we should save you the trouble and add the likes of Lewis, Chapman, Edwards, Bounds, Ryrie, Sunday, Muller, Murray, Moody et al? My goodness, do all these lessor men of God also disagree with your conclusions? Just curious.

EZE 18:20............... (he shall not if he will himself to do that which is lawful and right)

Why not stop this volley and move on to your idea of the curse
which God placed on creation at the time of the fall. Perhaps we have differing views of that?

 

[Winman]

Revmwc

I tend to agree the 99 who need not repentence was a jab at these self righteous Pharisees, but generally your interpretation has some flaws.

#1 Jesus never refers to unbelievers as his sheep. So the 99 were believers.

#2 The father did not call the son who never left a hypocrite. He said to him;

"Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is ALIVE AGAIN; and was lost and is found.

Jesus would not refer to an unbeliever as a Son, they will not be EVER with him, and he would have no inheritance. Also, the prodigal son would not be his brother.

And note for the second time the father says the prodigal son is alive AGAIN. You cannot be alive AGAIN if you were born dead.

So, your interpretation fails on several points.

 

[revmwc]

Revmwc

I tend to agree the 99 who need not repentence was a jab at these self righteous Pharisees, but generally your interpretation has some flaws.

#1 Jesus never refers to unbelievers as his sheep. So the 99 were believers.

#2 The father did not call the son who never left a hypocrite. He said to him;

"Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is ALIVE AGAIN; and was lost and is found.

Jesus would not refer to an unbeliever as a Son, they are NEVER with him, and he would have no inheritance. Also, the prodigal son would not be his brother.

And note for the second time the father says the prodigal son is alive AGAIN. You cannot be alive AGAIN if you were born dead.

So, your interpretation fails on several points.

First you have to define how he was dead, spiritually or temporally or if he was a believer who became carnal and stayedin it a while Operational death. Sheep were the fold the pharisees considered themselves sheep, but they were wolves in sheeps clothisng. The Jews had been with God and they were then and still are God's chosen people thus the parable is dealing with the jewish nation and those who questioned why Jesus was associating with the sinners they would be the Sons of Israels house.

 

[Winman]

It matters not what the Pharisees thought of themselves, Jesus said his sheep were those that hear his voice. How does God recover a lost sheep? Through his word he sends forth.

As for the prodigal son, it is important to notice that he "joined himself to a citizen of that country". I think this clearly indicates he was lost. If he was simply backslidden, would his father say he was DEAD?

 

[revmwc]

It matters not what the Pharisees thought of themselves, Jesus said his sheep were those that hear his voice. How does God recover a lost sheep? Through his word he sends forth.

As for the prodigal son, it is important to notice that he "joined himself to a citizen of that country". I think this clearly indicates he was lost. If he was simply backslidden, would his father say he was DEAD?

But it does matter as to their thinking and notice what Jesus said the shepherd did He left them in the wilderness, a shepherd would not leave true sheep in the wilderness without some form of protection, or in a sheep fold. He left them to seek the lost, Jesus left those leaders of Israel to seek the lost (sinners).

If the Prodigal was backslidden meaning a carnal believer he would be in Operational death, not Operating in the will of the Father. I don't think temporal death would apply as long as he had been out. If not saved then he would be spiritually dead.

 

[jimiam]

Revmwc
#1 Jesus never refers to unbelievers as his sheep. So the 99 were believers.

In which verse does Jesus refer to the 99 as "his" sheep?

 

[revmwc]

Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Verse 7 is the key, the just persons which need no repentence were the jewish leaders questioning Jesus. The didn't need salvation they felt they were already justified by their works. Notice he says what man of you, Jesus came to find the lost sheep which would become His.

 

[Winman]

But it does matter as to their thinking and notice what Jesus said the shepherd did He left them in the wilderness, a shepherd would not leave true sheep in the wilderness without some form of protection, or in a sheep fold. He left them to seek the lost, Jesus left those leaders of Israel to seek the lost (sinners).

If the Prodigal was backslidden meaning a carnal believer he would be in Operational death, not Operating in the will of the Father. I don't think temporal death would apply as long as he had been out. If not saved then he would be spiritually dead.

Perhaps, but I think the important words in these three parables is "having" in vs. 4 concerning the sheep, "having" in vs. 8 concerning the pieces of silver, and "had" in vs. 11 concerning the sons. All of these words show ownership or possession. All three parables show something that was owned, then lost, then recovered. If we are born lost we would not be owned.

I have to go to bed, but I'll leave you with one last scripture.

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep GOING ASTRAY; but now are RETURNED unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

How can you go astray if you were born separated from God?

How can you RETURN to God if you were born separated from God?

Words have meaning.

 

[revmwc]

Perhaps, but I think the important words in these three parables is "having" in vs. 4 concerning the sheep, "having" in vs. 8 concerning the pieces of silver, and "had" in vs. 11 concerning the sons. All of these words show ownership or possession. All three parables show something that was owned, then lost, then recovered. If we are born lost we would not be owned.

I have to go to bed, but I'll leave you with one last scripture.

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep GOING ASTRAY; but now are RETURNED unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

How can you go astray if you were born separated from God?

How can you RETURN to God if you were born separated from God?

Words have meaning.

Adam and Eve had fellowship with God and went astray, they became seperated from God in time, they went astray but when God called they answered and believed in the promised saviour they returned to God, fellowship with Him. So they died spiritually upon their disobedience and confessed their sin and God promised to send them a saviour.

 

[Winman]

Adam and Eve had fellowship with God and went astray, they became seperated from God in time, they went astray but when God called they answered and believed in the promised saviour they returned to God, fellowship with Him. So they died spiritually upon their disobedience and confessed their sin and God promised to send them a saviour.

Give me a break, Peter was addressing believers and you know it.

 

[convicted1]

People aren't spiritually alive. You cannot convict someone of sin who has no sin.

I may catch a ton of heat for saying this, but I say that babies are born spiritually alive, and whenever sin is conceived in their soul, they die and are in need of saving, and thus, the convicting of the holy Ghost can then take place.

What Webdog and myself believe is that men are not born "sinners". I believe we are clearly born with the ability to sin, but having the ability to sin does not make you a sinner, actually committing sin makes you a sinner.

Throw my name in there too, Brother!! I AGREE!!!

Do I have the ability to be a bank robber? Yes. Am I a bank robber? No, at least not yet, I have never robbed a bank.

I think some folks think you have to have a sin nature to sin. This is easily proved false by scripture. Adam and Eve were created "very good". They had no sin nature. Were they able to sin? Yes, and did!

Was Satan created evil? No, the scriptures say he was perfect in the day he was created. He was not created with a sin nature. Could Satan sin? Yes, and did!

So, you do not have to be born with a sin nature to sin, this is proved by scripture.

I would have to agree with all of this also.

The scriptures say we are flesh. That is the term used. The flesh has lusts and desires, but lust and desires do not equal sin. Sin is something you do, something you commit. The scriptures are clear that God judges us for what we do, not for what we can potentially do.

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

We are not judged because we have the ability and potential to sin, we are to be judged for the actual things we do, whether it be good or bad.

I agree with this also!!

A baby can do neither good or evil, the scriptures show this as well.

Rom 9: (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

This verse is speaking of Esau and Jacob when they were in their mother Rebecca's womb. They were very much alive when God spoke to Rebecca, and Paul shows that they had done neither good or evil. Little babies cannot do good or evil, they can barely do anything at all, but certainly not sin.

Now, when children get older they can certainly sin and do. And when a child gets old enough to understand right from wrong and willingly sins, then they spiritually die. And this happens to every single person without exception (except of course Jesus Christ).

That God does not hold small children accountable is shown by example in Deut 1:39.

Deut 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

When the children of Israel sinned against God in the wilderness, he swore they would not enter the promised land. But the children who had no knowledge between good and evil in that day the sin was committed were allowed to enter.

Very good post, Brother. Let me add Eze. 18:4,20:

Eze. 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze. 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

So, we are spiritually dead after sin is conceived in our soul. The penalty of sin is death. This was accomplished by Adam, and we inherited the sentence of physical death, and we can't avoid that whatsoever. Now, the blood of Christ is what stops the "death process" of the soul. The baby that dies in infancy, is under God's Grace, and in this Grace is the blood, so it goes to heaven via the blood of Christ. Once it comes to know to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin, then it is no longer under God's Grace, and becomes totally depraved, and is in need of saving.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[revmwc]

I may catch a ton of heat for saying this, but I say that babies are born spiritually alive, and whenever sin is conceived in their soul, they die and are in need of saving, and thus, the convicting of the holy Ghost can then take place.



Throw my name in there too, Brother!! I AGREE!!!



I would have to agree with all of this also.




I agree with this also!!




Very good post, Brother. Let me add Eze. 18:4,20:

Eze. 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze. 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

So, we are spiritually dead after sin is conceived in our soul. The penalty of sin is death. This was accomplished by Adam, and we inherited the sentence of physical death, and we can't avoid that whatsoever. Now, the blood of Christ is what stops the "death process" of the soul. The baby that dies in infancy, is under God's Grace, and in this Grace is the blood, so it goes to heaven via the blood of Christ. Once it comes to know to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin, then it is no longer under God's Grace, and becomes totally depraved, and is in need of saving.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

Paul doesn't say that,
Romans 5: 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Which death entered the world? This would be Spiritual death.

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

This is Physical death.

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

The offence of one (Adam) many be dead (spiritually), Christ being the exception.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

The judgement was by one (Adam) to condemnation. The free gift is Justification by Christ.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

For if by one man's offence death (spiritual) reignedby one. Righteousness comes from one Jesus.

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

By Adam's offence judgement came, the free gift of righteousness is available to all mankind.

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

By Adam's disobedience many (all except Jesus) were made sinners (old Sin Nature in us), by Christ obedience shall many be made righteous, all who accept the free gift are made righteous.

20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

When the law came it set the standard and all men are found wanting, but God's grace abounds through it all.

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

The old sin nature has reigned in us all unto death (spiritual) even so grace reigns unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[revmwc]

Give me a break, Peter was addressing believers and you know it.

2 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

We as unbelievers were like sheep who go astray notice it doesn't say we were sheep but as (like) sheep, but we accepted the free gift of Salvation and have come or as a sheep that had gone astray returns to the shepherd so we came to the Shepherd and bishop of our soul. He bore our sins and we are now dead (positional death) to sin but we sin so what are we dead to we are dead to the domination of the old sin nature we are now positionally in Christ. We should live unto righteousness but do we always of course not. We are healed by Jesus stripes.

 

[revmwc]

Let me add Eze. 18:4,20:

Eze. 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze. 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

So, we are spiritually dead after sin is conceived in our soul. The penalty of sin is death. This was accomplished by Adam, and we inherited the sentence of physical death, and we can't avoid that whatsoever. Now, the blood of Christ is what stops the "death process" of the soul. The baby that dies in infancy, is under God's Grace, and in this Grace is the blood, so it goes to heaven via the blood of Christ. Once it comes to know to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin, then it is no longer under God's Grace, and becomes totally depraved, and is in need of saving.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

Let's take Ezekial 18: 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The penalty for the sins listed was contained in the law and it was stoning so here we see physical death, comes to those guilty in nation Israel for their crimes.

Then: 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Again a father can not be put to death (stoned) because of the son nor the son because of the father.
Here Ezekial was dealing with physical death by means of stoning, the death penalty. Do we put a father to death today because his son committed murder, I don't think so, do we put a son to death because his father committed murder again I have never heard of that.


21But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Was their a pardon from transgressions in the O.T. Law, I haven't seen it but here it sounds like there was one, if a man turns from his sin and turns to God, just as we receive Christ then we are no longer dead (spiritually) but will live in eternity with God, we will not die the second death.

The consequnces of our sin on earth must be paid for, if we cimmit a crime society will punish that crime. That was the point here in Ezekial.

 

[HankD]

Romans 5:12-14 is all I need to prove that we have inherited the propensity to sin along with sin's result death else newborns couldn't die.

Also
1) the ability to sin is an unlearned behavior of the human race
(ever teach your children to sin?) and
2) It is a universal trait of humankind.

Jesus Christ is not like us in every way.

1) Unlike us He is God become flesh.
2) Unlike us He was conceived without a flesh father.
3) Unlike us He never sinned either as a child or an adult.

Hebrews 2 (like unto His brethren) is in the context of earthly temptation.

All of Adam's children down through the ages have suffered death, the result of their father's sin.

Romans 5

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.​

Ezekiel 18 is in the context of the Law of Moses. The penalty of the infractions of the Law of Moses were not to be extended to a man's progeny.​

Adam's sin was different as Romans 5:14 indicates.
Death, the result of Adam's sin falls upon ALL his children else newborns could not die.​

HankD​

 

[JesusFan]

I may catch a ton of heat for saying this, but I say that babies are born spiritually alive, and whenever sin is conceived in their soul, they die and are in need of saving, and thus, the convicting of the holy Ghost can then take place.

actually, the babies are born sinners, inheriting from their "father" Adam the curse of the fall...
God has provided for them to be covered under His grace, under the atonement of the Cross, to be 'saved' until their age of accountibility, at least that is my understanding...



Throw my name in there too, Brother!! I AGREE!!!



I would have to agree with all of this also.

remember though that unlike ANY of us, Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit, was/is God and sinless human natures, and Adam Lucifer created pure and untainted

Different rules apply after the fall...


I agree with this also!!




Very good post, Brother. Let me add Eze. 18:4,20:

Eze. 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze. 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

So, we are spiritually dead after sin is conceived in our soul. The penalty of sin is death. This was accomplished by Adam, and we inherited the sentence of physical death, and we can't avoid that whatsoever. Now, the blood of Christ is what stops the "death process" of the soul. The baby that dies in infancy, is under God's Grace, and in this Grace is the blood, so it goes to heaven via the blood of Christ. Once it comes to know to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin, then it is no longer under God's Grace, and becomes totally depraved, and is in need of saving.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

Actually, baby is born with sin nature, rest of your reasoning applies to How God provides for them to be "saved" until accountible to Him...

 

[jimiam]

Actually, baby is born with sin nature, rest of your reasoning applies to How God provides for them to be "saved" until accountible to Him...

I have to agree with this. Further, if we deny inherited sin, how do we address depravity? (not to mention a score of other
doctrines)
I do not agree that we have to physicaly commit a sin to be guilty of it. I think Paul indicates that concerning lust in your eyes and/or heart.
I also know well, that I will not be held accountable for Adam's sins, but because of them I must account for my own.