If we Are NOT Born Spiritual dead, than Why would the Holy Spirit Convict us of Sin?

[jimiam]

Give me a break, Peter was addressing believers and you know it.

If this is the case, how does your bible present vss. 1-2 ?
Mine reads;
1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners.............
2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured................

But then, even the demons believe.

 

[Winman]

If this is the case, how does your bible present vss. 1-2 ?
Mine reads;
1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners.............
2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured................

But then, even the demons believe.

Jim, Jesus never calls unbelievers his sheep.

Jn 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said into you. 11 MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, and I know them, and they follow me.

The Pharisees and scribes in Luke 15 were not believers, so the 99 sheep that he owned (having) were not the Pharisees and scribes. It is true that he was speaking to them, but not of them.

And Peter was speaking to fellow believers in 1 Pet 2:25

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

How can you go astray from God if you are born separated from God? You can't run away from home unless you first have a home and live there.

How can you return to God if you were born separated from him? You can't return to someplace you have not been.

The prodigal son could not be said to have returned home unless he first lived there. And just as 1 Pet 2:25 says, he left home and went astray in sin. Then he came to himself, repented, and returned home to his father.

You cannot return to somewhere you have never been. And you cannot be alive AGAIN unless you were first alive.

 

[jimiam]

Jim, Jesus never calls unbelievers his sheep......................

How can you go astray from God if you are born separated from God?..................
You cannot return to somewhere you have never been. And you cannot be alive AGAIN unless you were first alive.

I agree somewhat with you. Yet, no place within this parable
does Jesus refer to the sheep as "his sheep". Rather, he says, "What man among you having....." Every mention of sheep, in scripture, does not refer to his sheep. Sometimes, it means simply sheep.

Consider:
I'm sure you agree, man has not been in a natural state since the fall. The rebirth, does in essence (through Christ who lives in us) bring us back into that natural state [spiritualy]. Thus we return.

 

[HankD]

Jim, Jesus never calls unbelievers his sheep.

Jn 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said into you. 11 MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, and I know them, and they follow me.

The Pharisees and scribes in Luke 15 were not believers, so the 99 sheep that he owned (having) were not the Pharisees and scribes. It is true that he was speaking to them, but not of them.

And Peter was speaking to fellow believers in 1 Pet 2:25

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

How can you go astray from God if you are born separated from God? You can't run away from home unless you first have a home and live there.

How can you return to God if you were born separated from him? You can't return to someplace you have not been.

The prodigal son could not be said to have returned home unless he first lived there. And just as 1 Pet 2:25 says, he left home and went astray in sin. Then he came to himself, repented, and returned home to his father.

You cannot return to somewhere you have never been. And you cannot be alive AGAIN unless you were first alive.

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia.​

"strangers" in the opening verse is to whom the epistle is addressed.​

The word is diaspora and is the dispersion of Jews outside of the land of promise.​

1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;​

Peter is addressing them as "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" the remnant who had lost hope and disenfranchised themselves because of the Roman occupation and were as good as dead toward the abrahamic promise.​

Now through faith in Jesus Christ they are included along with the Gentiles in the holy priesthood of New Covenant believers even though they are Jews and outside of the land of promise.​

"returned" has the meaning of having been brought back (into the abrahamic promise/covenant).​

HankD​

 

[DHK]

I agree somewhat with you. Yet, no place within this parable
does Jesus refer to the sheep as "his sheep". Rather, he says, "What man among you having....." Every mention of sheep, in scripture, does not refer to his sheep. Sometimes, it means simply sheep.

Consider:
I'm sure you agree, man has not been in a natural state since the fall. The rebirth, does in essence (through Christ who lives in us) bring us back into that natural state [spiritualy]. Thus we return.

I can predict what the Calvinist response would be on this passage. So let me preface my remarks by saying that I believe that Christ died for the "whole" world, and not just for the elect, that whosoever shall believe in him should have eternal life.

That being the case, look at these verses, and what would "sheep" mean:

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:4-6)
--Here all means all. All the human race, as sheep, have gone astray. Our human nature has led us that way, and thus the need for a Savior.

 

[jimiam]

.......So let me preface my remarks by saying that I believe that Christ died for the "whole" world, and not just for the elect, that whosoever shall believe in him should have eternal life.

That being the case, look at these verses, and what would "sheep" mean:

..........(Isaiah 53:4-6)
--Here all means all. All the human race, as sheep, have gone astray. Our human nature has led us that way, and thus the need for a Savior.

I don't get your point unless you are attempting to determine if I am or not a calvinist. :laugh:

I tend towards calvinism, but am not a pure or true calvinist.
The passages you quote; sheep means sheep, ever watch 'em graze? They tend to wander all over 'cuz they hold thier heads so low to the ground to eat, and yes, all means all. I too believe Christ died for all [who shall call on his name] I have been searching for an acceptable definition of "the elect" for years. I'm not sure I agree with Calvin's def. of elect, or of predestination. Perhaps I simply do not fully understand his message. In the meantime, I'll just keep a'grinnin, and eatin' my fried chicken. I'll plead the blood of Christ and thank my creator the gospel is much easier to understand than man's 'isms. Then prey He forgives me for spending time isming when I could have been spreading the gospel.

 

[DHK]

I don't get your point unless you are attempting to determine if I am or not a calvinist. :laugh:

I tend towards calvinism, but am not a pure or true calvinist.
The passages you quote; sheep means sheep, ever watch 'em graze? They tend to wander all over 'cuz they hold thier heads so low to the ground to eat, and yes, all means all. I too believe Christ died for all. I have been searching for an acceptable definition of "the elect" for years.
I'm not sure if I agree with Calvin's def. of elect, or of predestination. Perhaps I simply do not fully understand his message. In the meantime, I'll just keep a'grinnin, and eatin' my fried chicken. I'll plead the blood of Christ and thank my creator the gospel is much easier to understand than man's 'isms. Then prey He forgives me for spending time isming when I could have been spreading the gospel.

Perhaps I should have directed my remarks more to Winman who said:

Jim, Jesus never calls unbelievers his sheep.

I was pointing out that that wasn't always the case.
However it is the Calvinist that usually is adamant in saying what Winman said--unbelievers are never called sheep--referring to the elect.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Thought I would modify your statement a bit, let me know what you think:thumbsup:

I can predict what the Calvinist response would be on this passage. So let me preface my remarks by saying that I believe that Christ died for the "whole" world, and not just for the elect, that whosoever shall believe in him should have eternal life. That being the case, look at these verses, and what would "sheep" mean:

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:4-6)
--Here all means all. All the human race, as sheep, have gone astray. Our human nature has led us that way, and thus the need for a Savior.
__________________DHK

to.....
I believe that Christ died for the "whole" world, {jew and gentile} just for the elect, that everyone believing in him should have eternal life.


to....

All we like lost sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:4-6)
--Here all means all. All the human race, {jew and gentile}lost sheep[given to Jesus before the world was jn17], have gone astray

Jesus is going to find all of the lost sheep He died for..as He explains to us in EZK.34

11For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. 12As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them

16I will seek that which was lost

Goats are not lost sheep

 

[DHK]

DHK

Thought I would modify your statement a bit, let me know what you think
to.....
I believe that Christ died for the "whole" world, {jew and gentile} just for the elect, that everyone believing in him should have eternal life.

To insert "just for the elect" into that statement makes the statement contradict itself. It makes no sense.

to....
Jesus is going to find all of the lost sheep He died for..as He explains to us in EZK.34

He will find lost sheep. That is what the Bible teaches.

Goats are not lost sheep

I never said they were. You must be referring to a parable. Parables do not teach doctrine. They are meant to illustrate doctrine that has already been taught. To introduce at this point a parable, and try to teach from it a doctrine which contradicts other Scripture, is not a good hermeneutic. Jesus died for all the world. All the world (the sheep) have gone astray as sheep. We are all sinners, as sheep, and we all need a Savior--everyone; no one excluded. Christ will save those who believe on Him.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

I never said they were. You must be referring to a parable. Parables do not teach doctrine. They are meant to illustrate doctrine that has already been taught. To introduce at this point a parable, and try to teach from it a doctrine which contradicts other Scripture, is not a good hermeneutic. Jesus died for all the world. All the world (the sheep) have gone astray as sheep. We are all sinners, as sheep, and we all need a Savior--everyone; no one excluded. Christ will save those who believe on Him.

Sorry....but your explanation of all being sheep does not work here...

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

DHK...I cannot see your view because of very clear passages like this one.

Jesus does not say all men are sheep.
it is not a hermenutical issue.Goats are not sheep.Sheep are sheep.Jesus has been given elect sheep..they are His, He dies for them alone.No more,No less.

 

[convicted1]

Paul doesn't say that,
Romans 5: 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Which death entered the world? This would be Spiritual death.

Wrong, dear Brother, wrong!! Death COULD NOT take place until sin first abound!!! Adam and Eve COULD NOT die until AFTER they ate of the forbidden tree, and then they died spiritually(because of what THEY did), and the sentence of physical death was placed upon all mankind due to this!! We die spiritually when sin is conceived in our soul.

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

This is Physical death.

Look closely at that which I bolded. What law has a new born babe committed?? When does the law come to them?? The law, when it confronts us, shows us how vile we are, and then we die.

Rom. 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Right here Apostle Paul he had not known sin except by the law!!

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
What is sin? It's a transgression of the law. What law can a new born babe break??
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Apostle Paul states plainly that he was alive without the law, but when sin revived, he died. I'll take the Holy Ghost inspiried(sp?) writing of Paul anyday!!

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Now, answer these two questions for me. No one else has been able to, but maybe, just maybe, you can. How could Apostle Paul be alive without the law, and be spiritually dead? And, how can you slay a "dead thing"? Apostle Paul stated that sin slew him. So to "slew" something, it must be alive prior to being slayed, correct?? Now answer these questions before you carry this discussion with me any further, please?

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

The offence of one (Adam) many be dead (spiritually), Christ being the exception.

Wrong again, dear Brother!! I'll admit, you trying, but your putting emphasis on the wrong "death" here. Adam's sin placed natural death on all mankind. Our sins our what seperates us from God.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

The judgement was by one (Adam) to condemnation. The free gift is Justification by Christ.

Agree with this right here. Jesus came to straighten out the mess Adam and Eve caused!!

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

For if by one man's offence death (spiritual) reignedby one. Righteousness comes from one Jesus.

Wrong again, dear Brother!! Physical death is a guarantee, and there is nothing-not even the blood of Christ- will stop our physical bodies from dying. The blood cleanses our soul, and makes it alive again.

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

By Adam's offence judgement came, the free gift of righteousness is available to all mankind.

Agreed!!

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

By Adam's disobedience many (all except Jesus) were made sinners (old Sin Nature in us), by Christ obedience shall many be made righteous, all who accept the free gift are made righteous.

We were born with the "death sentence" placed upon our physical body, and the ability to sin, by Adam's transgression. Adam and Eve were created sinless, but they eventually sinned. The same can be said for Lucifer as well. They chose to sin, and at the moment they sinned, they became seperated from God because of it, and not before. For us to be born spiritually dead, we are born seperated from God due to someone's sin.

20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

When the law came it set the standard and all men are found wanting, but God's grace abounds through it all.

All men are found wanting after they transgress the law, and not before. That's like getting a speeding ticket when you are two years old.

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

The old sin nature has reigned in us all unto death (spiritual) even so grace reigns unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Spiritual death occurs only after sins "boils over", and taints our soul....when we know to do good, and doeth it not, to him, it is sin.......

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[Calv1]

Wrong, dear Brother, wrong!! Death COULD NOT take place until sin first abound!!! Adam and Eve COULD NOT die until AFTER they ate of the forbidden tree, and then they died spiritually(because of what THEY did), and the sentence of physical death was placed upon all mankind due to this!! We die spiritually when sin is conceived in our soul.

Calv1: Nice Philosophy! "Sin abound"? That is from the womb, "They sin from the womb, telling lies". Since when does the Baptist Church become the Mormon Church by denying orgininal sin????? You are inversely saying we are born righteous, for only the righteous, not the innocent like Adam and Eve, can inherit the Kingdom of God.

Children of God, you need to STUDY before you open your mouths, this forum is old wives tales and non-sense, you are just making things up off of your traditions and imagination.

I've come to the conclusion that I will debate anyone on this forum. The moderator will probably cut me off because I want him first, but I challenge anyone here (Aside from my brothers)



Look closely at that which I bolded. What law has a new born babe committed?? When does the law come to them?? The law, when it confronts us, shows us how vile we are, and then we die.

Calv1: Wrong, try again. We are vile from the womb. Think this way, even if Christ died only for our sins, we would only revert back to Adams innocence. But that is not what Christ did, He also lived a rightous life for us, so we can be where Christ is, that is rightous, at the right hand of the Father. This is imputed on infants to show God's glory, although everything about infants is a mystery. In your synergist form, ALL infants go to Hell, but in the biblical truth of monogesim God is FREE to save whom He will.

Rom. 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Right here Apostle Paul he had not known sin except by the law!!

Calv1: How typical that you use NO EXEGESIS! Is not the law applicable to all? You are a universalist

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
What is sin? It's a transgression of the law. What law can a new born babe break??
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Apostle Paul states plainly that he was alive without the law, but when sin revived, he died. I'll take the Holy Ghost inspiried(sp?) writing of Paul anyday!!

Calv1: Are you REALLY trying to say that Paul was "Alive", IE Rightous? Wake up forum! Yea, he was alive killing Christians, contrary to Romans 1, will you stop at nothing to say we are righteous at birth?

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Now, answer these two questions for me. No one else has been able to, but maybe, just maybe, you can. How could Apostle Paul be alive without the law, and be spiritually dead? And, how can you slay a "dead thing"? Apostle Paul stated that sin slew him. So to "slew" something, it must be alive prior to being slayed, correct?? Now answer these questions before you carry this discussion with me any further, please?




Wrong again, dear Brother!! I'll admit, you trying, but your putting emphasis on the wrong "death" here. Adam's sin placed natural death on all mankind. Our sins our what seperates us from God.



Agree with this right here. Jesus came to straighten out the mess Adam and Eve caused!!




Wrong again, dear Brother!! Physical death is a guarantee, and there is nothing-not even the blood of Christ- will stop our physical bodies from dying. The blood cleanses our soul, and makes it alive again.




Agreed!!




We were born with the "death sentence" placed upon our physical body, and the ability to sin, by Adam's transgression. Adam and Eve were created sinless, but they eventually sinned. The same can be said for Lucifer as well. They chose to sin, and at the moment they sinned, they became seperated from God because of it, and not before. For us to be born spiritually dead, we are born seperated from God due to someone's sin.




All men are found wanting after they transgress the law, and not before. That's like getting a speeding ticket when you are two years old.



Spiritual death occurs only after sins "boils over", and taints our soul....when we know to do good, and doeth it not, to him, it is sin.......

i am I AM's!!

Willis

This is silly. Do yourselves a favor, don't SPEAK ANOTHER WORD, until you've read both sides of the story. This forum, I mean it's [EDIT - personal attacks are not allowed]

I know, I'll be called a leprechon, no, troll, or whatever, "Hyper" this or that.

Aside from Iconoclast and that Luke guy, this is, well I can let my child take over, and he's 10. I thought about the criticism upon me for saying "These people are [EDIT - personal attacks are not allowed]", well guess what? They are! They know nothing, they just love to talk about what they don't know, to their brothers demise and theirs!

Anyone have a problem? Instead of labeling me, DEBATE ME, ANYONE! It's easy to call names, anyone have the ability to debate? If so, you post the topic, and let's go, otherwise keep your [EDIT - personal attacks are not allowed]

 

[convicted1]

This is silly. Do yourselves a favor, don't SPEAK ANOTHER WORD, until you've read both sides of the story. This forum, I mean it's crazy, ignorance, the smartest guy doesn't have a clue.

I know, I'll be called a leprechon, no, troll, or whatever, "Hyper" this or that.

Aside from Iconoclast and that Luke guy, this is, well I can let my child take over, and he's 10. I thought about the criticism upon me for saying "These people are lazy", well guess what? They are! They know nothing, they just love to talk about what they don't know, to their brothers demise and theirs!

Anyone have a problem? Instead of labeling me, DEBATE ME, ANYONE! It's easy to call names, anyone have the ability to debate? If so, you post the topic, and let's go, otherwise keep your cowardly pen closed.

To quote the late, great, Red Skelton; "Boy, we sure gonna miss you around here!"

BTW, what did I do for you to berate me!! Just because I am not a calvinist, gives you no right to berate me!! I have been civil, and will remain civil, but you had no right to blast me like this!! Please take a "chill pill", and take slow, deep, breaths!!

 

[Calv1]

To quote the late, great, Red Skelton; "Boy, we sure gonna miss you around here!"

BTW, what did I do for you to berate me!! Just because I am not a calvinist, gives you no right to berate me!! I have been civil, and will remain civil, but you had no right to blast me like this!! Please take a "chill pill", and take slow, deep, breaths!!

Funny! Great insults! I'm laughing, but curious, why did you not answer any of my points?

 

[convicted1]

Funny! Great insults! I'm laughing, but curious, why did you not answer any of my points?

Brother, where did I insult you at? You came in, blasted me for no good reason whatsoever, and insulted me!!

I am just telling you to chill out, Brother!! You coming in blasting people will get you tossed out of here. I want you to stay around, debate theology, etc, but with this "blasting" attitiude you seem to have, no one will be able to debate with you.

The reason why I didn't answer you points? it's fruitless!! I have shown my position to be correct, and y'all say it's not. I would be just showing you scripture, and you'd disagree. you'd show we verses, and I'd disagree.

Word of advice, there was someone who came on here a little over a year ago, thought he'd comein here and straighten us all out with the DoG he believed in. He did this is a "gruff" manner, and they gave him the axe. I don't want to see this same thing happen to you Brother!!

Like I said earlier, I have been civil with everyone on here, even if I believe they are completely wrong. Just because I don't agree with them, that doesn't make it right for me to say, "Well, you're lazy and don't study enough". How'd you like for someone to tell you that? See where I am coming from?? Just relax, kick your shoes off, and debate, not berate scripture.

Peace??

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[Calv1]

Brother, where did I insult you at? You came in, blasted me for no good reason whatsoever, and insulted me!!

I am just telling you to chill out, Brother!! You coming in blasting people will get you tossed out of here. I want you to stay around, debate theology, etc, but with this "blasting" attitiude you seem to have, no one will be able to debate with you.

The reason why I didn't answer you points? it's fruitless!! I have shown my position to be correct, and y'all say it's not. I would be just showing you scripture, and you'd disagree. you'd show we verses, and I'd disagree.

Word of advice, there was someone who came on here a little over a year ago, thought he'd comein here and straighten us all out with the DoG he believed in. He did this is a "gruff" manner, and they gave him the axe. I don't want to see this same thing happen to you Brother!!

Like I said earlier, I have been civil with everyone on here, even if I believe they are completely wrong. Just because I don't agree with them, that doesn't make it right for me to say, "Well, you're lazy and don't study enough". How'd you like for someone to tell you that? See where I am coming from?? Just relax, kick your shoes off, and debate, not berate scripture.

Peace??

i am I AM's!!

Willis

Guess what? Start a thread to debate me on any topic. All will win, for the truth will come out.

I would presume all Christians would want the truth, so let's debate, pick your topic. I'm simply tired, and yes disgusted meeting with Christians, real Christians in mental hospitals because they do believe in God, but have to listen and believe in this false gospel that it's all up to them, the gospel of WebDog, these guys [EDIT - personal attacks are not allowed]

I've taken care of guys in the mental hospital who have literally tried to kill themselves, and that is because they have read the bible, are TRUE Christians, yet think they are not saved, because of various synergistic works oriented problems............I don't blame them, if it was up to me I would be a nut also.

So let's talk the truth and get arid of our "God love us all nonsense", God loves His elect and hates His enemies.

I don't mind if people speak their minds, but if they are ignorant, they need to shut up, I've seen guys, YOUNG MEN literally blow out their brains because they thought they could never make it with God.

 

[quantumfaith]

This is silly. Do yourselves a favor, don't SPEAK ANOTHER WORD, until you've read both sides of the story. This forum, I mean it's crazy, ignorance, the smartest guy doesn't have a clue.

I know, I'll be called a leprechon, no, troll, or whatever, "Hyper" this or that.

Aside from Iconoclast and that Luke guy, this is, well I can let my child take over, and he's 10. I thought about the criticism upon me for saying "These people are lazy", well guess what? They are! They know nothing, they just love to talk about what they don't know, to their brothers demise and theirs!

Anyone have a problem? Instead of labeling me, DEBATE ME, ANYONE! It's easy to call names, anyone have the ability to debate? If so, you post the topic, and let's go, otherwise keep your cowardly pen closed.

Not calling you names Calv1, but this is the very reason many do not want to debate (argue) with you, your clearly expressed attitude of arrogance which btw has nothing to do with your theological position and proclivities. So be very clear in understanding, I am not "making light" of your theology, rather I am criticizing your expression of arrogance rather than the "attempting" to express humility.