If we Are NOT Born Spiritual dead, than Why would the Holy Spirit Convict us of Sin?

If this is the case, how does your bible present vss. 1-2 ?
Mine reads;
1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners.............
2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured................

But then, even the demons believe.

 

Jim, Jesus never calls unbelievers his sheep.

Jn 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said into you. 11 MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, and I know them, and they follow me.

The Pharisees and scribes in Luke 15 were not believers, so the 99 sheep that he owned (having) were not the Pharisees and scribes. It is true that he was speaking to them, but not of them.

And Peter was speaking to fellow believers in 1 Pet 2:25

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

How can you go astray from God if you are born separated from God? You can't run away from home unless you first have a home and live there.

How can you return to God if you were born separated from him? You can't return to someplace you have not been.

The prodigal son could not be said to have returned home unless he first lived there. And just as 1 Pet 2:25 says, he left home and went astray in sin. Then he came to himself, repented, and returned home to his father.

You cannot return to somewhere you have never been. And you cannot be alive AGAIN unless you were first alive.

 

I agree somewhat with you. Yet, no place within this parable
does Jesus refer to the sheep as "his sheep". Rather, he says, "What man among you having....." Every mention of sheep, in scripture, does not refer to his sheep. Sometimes, it means simply sheep.

Consider:
I'm sure you agree, man has not been in a natural state since the fall. The rebirth, does in essence (through Christ who lives in us) bring us back into that natural state [spiritualy]. Thus we return.

 

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia.​

"strangers" in the opening verse is to whom the epistle is addressed.​

The word is diaspora and is the dispersion of Jews outside of the land of promise.​

1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;​

Peter is addressing them as "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" the remnant who had lost hope and disenfranchised themselves because of the Roman occupation and were as good as dead toward the abrahamic promise.​

Now through faith in Jesus Christ they are included along with the Gentiles in the holy priesthood of New Covenant believers even though they are Jews and outside of the land of promise.​

"returned" has the meaning of having been brought back (into the abrahamic promise/covenant).​

HankD​

 

I can predict what the Calvinist response would be on this passage. So let me preface my remarks by saying that I believe that Christ died for the "whole" world, and not just for the elect, that whosoever shall believe in him should have eternal life.

That being the case, look at these verses, and what would "sheep" mean:

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:4-6)
--Here all means all. All the human race, as sheep, have gone astray. Our human nature has led us that way, and thus the need for a Savior.

 

I don't get your point unless you are attempting to determine if I am or not a calvinist. :laugh:

I tend towards calvinism, but am not a pure or true calvinist.
The passages you quote; sheep means sheep, ever watch 'em graze? They tend to wander all over 'cuz they hold thier heads so low to the ground to eat, and yes, all means all. I too believe Christ died for all [who shall call on his name] I have been searching for an acceptable definition of "the elect" for years. I'm not sure I agree with Calvin's def. of elect, or of predestination. Perhaps I simply do not fully understand his message. In the meantime, I'll just keep a'grinnin, and eatin' my fried chicken. I'll plead the blood of Christ and thank my creator the gospel is much easier to understand than man's 'isms. Then prey He forgives me for spending time isming when I could have been spreading the gospel.

 

Perhaps I should have directed my remarks more to Winman who said:

I was pointing out that that wasn't always the case.
However it is the Calvinist that usually is adamant in saying what Winman said--unbelievers are never called sheep--referring to the elect.

 

DHK

Thought I would modify your statement a bit, let me know what you think:thumbsup:

to.....
I believe that Christ died for the "whole" world, {jew and gentile} just for the elect, that everyone believing in him should have eternal life.


to....

Jesus is going to find all of the lost sheep He died for..as He explains to us in EZK.34

Goats are not lost sheep

 

To insert "just for the elect" into that statement makes the statement contradict itself. It makes no sense.

He will find lost sheep. That is what the Bible teaches.

I never said they were. You must be referring to a parable. Parables do not teach doctrine. They are meant to illustrate doctrine that has already been taught. To introduce at this point a parable, and try to teach from it a doctrine which contradicts other Scripture, is not a good hermeneutic. Jesus died for all the world. All the world (the sheep) have gone astray as sheep. We are all sinners, as sheep, and we all need a Savior--everyone; no one excluded. Christ will save those who believe on Him.

 

DHK

Sorry....but your explanation of all being sheep does not work here...

DHK...I cannot see your view because of very clear passages like this one.

Jesus does not say all men are sheep.
it is not a hermenutical issue.Goats are not sheep.Sheep are sheep.Jesus has been given elect sheep..they are His, He dies for them alone.No more,No less.

 

Wrong, dear Brother, wrong!! Death COULD NOT take place until sin first abound!!! Adam and Eve COULD NOT die until AFTER they ate of the forbidden tree, and then they died spiritually(because of what THEY did), and the sentence of physical death was placed upon all mankind due to this!! We die spiritually when sin is conceived in our soul.

Look closely at that which I bolded. What law has a new born babe committed?? When does the law come to them?? The law, when it confronts us, shows us how vile we are, and then we die.

Rom. 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Right here Apostle Paul he had not known sin except by the law!!

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
What is sin? It's a transgression of the law. What law can a new born babe break??
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Apostle Paul states plainly that he was alive without the law, but when sin revived, he died. I'll take the Holy Ghost inspiried(sp?) writing of Paul anyday!!

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Now, answer these two questions for me. No one else has been able to, but maybe, just maybe, you can. How could Apostle Paul be alive without the law, and be spiritually dead? And, how can you slay a "dead thing"? Apostle Paul stated that sin slew him. So to "slew" something, it must be alive prior to being slayed, correct?? Now answer these questions before you carry this discussion with me any further, please?

Wrong again, dear Brother!! I'll admit, you trying, but your putting emphasis on the wrong "death" here. Adam's sin placed natural death on all mankind. Our sins our what seperates us from God.

Agree with this right here. Jesus came to straighten out the mess Adam and Eve caused!!

Wrong again, dear Brother!! Physical death is a guarantee, and there is nothing-not even the blood of Christ- will stop our physical bodies from dying. The blood cleanses our soul, and makes it alive again.

Agreed!!

We were born with the "death sentence" placed upon our physical body, and the ability to sin, by Adam's transgression. Adam and Eve were created sinless, but they eventually sinned. The same can be said for Lucifer as well. They chose to sin, and at the moment they sinned, they became seperated from God because of it, and not before. For us to be born spiritually dead, we are born seperated from God due to someone's sin.

All men are found wanting after they transgress the law, and not before. That's like getting a speeding ticket when you are two years old.

Spiritual death occurs only after sins "boils over", and taints our soul....when we know to do good, and doeth it not, to him, it is sin.......

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

This is silly. Do yourselves a favor, don't SPEAK ANOTHER WORD, until you've read both sides of the story. This forum, I mean it's [EDIT - personal attacks are not allowed]

I know, I'll be called a leprechon, no, troll, or whatever, "Hyper" this or that.

Aside from Iconoclast and that Luke guy, this is, well I can let my child take over, and he's 10. I thought about the criticism upon me for saying "These people are [EDIT - personal attacks are not allowed]", well guess what? They are! They know nothing, they just love to talk about what they don't know, to their brothers demise and theirs!

Anyone have a problem? Instead of labeling me, DEBATE ME, ANYONE! It's easy to call names, anyone have the ability to debate? If so, you post the topic, and let's go, otherwise keep your [EDIT - personal attacks are not allowed]

 

To quote the late, great, Red Skelton; "Boy, we sure gonna miss you around here!"

BTW, what did I do for you to berate me!! Just because I am not a calvinist, gives you no right to berate me!! I have been civil, and will remain civil, but you had no right to blast me like this!! Please take a "chill pill", and take slow, deep, breaths!!

 

Funny! Great insults! I'm laughing, but curious, why did you not answer any of my points?

 

Brother, where did I insult you at? You came in, blasted me for no good reason whatsoever, and insulted me!!

I am just telling you to chill out, Brother!! You coming in blasting people will get you tossed out of here. I want you to stay around, debate theology, etc, but with this "blasting" attitiude you seem to have, no one will be able to debate with you.

The reason why I didn't answer you points? it's fruitless!! I have shown my position to be correct, and y'all say it's not. I would be just showing you scripture, and you'd disagree. you'd show we verses, and I'd disagree.

Word of advice, there was someone who came on here a little over a year ago, thought he'd comein here and straighten us all out with the DoG he believed in. He did this is a "gruff" manner, and they gave him the axe. I don't want to see this same thing happen to you Brother!!

Like I said earlier, I have been civil with everyone on here, even if I believe they are completely wrong. Just because I don't agree with them, that doesn't make it right for me to say, "Well, you're lazy and don't study enough". How'd you like for someone to tell you that? See where I am coming from?? Just relax, kick your shoes off, and debate, not berate scripture.

Peace??

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

Guess what? Start a thread to debate me on any topic. All will win, for the truth will come out.

I would presume all Christians would want the truth, so let's debate, pick your topic. I'm simply tired, and yes disgusted meeting with Christians, real Christians in mental hospitals because they do believe in God, but have to listen and believe in this false gospel that it's all up to them, the gospel of WebDog, these guys [EDIT - personal attacks are not allowed]

I've taken care of guys in the mental hospital who have literally tried to kill themselves, and that is because they have read the bible, are TRUE Christians, yet think they are not saved, because of various synergistic works oriented problems............I don't blame them, if it was up to me I would be a nut also.

So let's talk the truth and get arid of our "God love us all nonsense", God loves His elect and hates His enemies.

I don't mind if people speak their minds, but if they are ignorant, they need to shut up, I've seen guys, YOUNG MEN literally blow out their brains because they thought they could never make it with God.

 

Not calling you names Calv1, but this is the very reason many do not want to debate (argue) with you, your clearly expressed attitude of arrogance which btw has nothing to do with your theological position and proclivities. So be very clear in understanding, I am not "making light" of your theology, rather I am criticizing your expression of arrogance rather than the "attempting" to express humility.