If you believe you can lose your salvation, are you really saved?

Hi all, just wanted to throw something in. Perhaps these two verses have been cited already but maybe not. I can see no way of getting around he two verses below. Jesus said once we drink the water he gives it is everlasting and we will NEVER be thirsty again. He said never. If we would be able to lose our salvation we would again thirst. Jesus is straight forward and clear here. If we drink the water we will never thirst again. If we receive him it is everlasting and everlasting never ends. Please read and read again verse 14. It is beautifully said in the KJV and very reassuring. I can know I am saved and will not lose my salvation because Jesus said so and because the “living water” he gives is springing (present tense) in me and it is everlasting (as in “already happened”).

There, now we all know that OSAS is Biblical and true.


John 4: (KJV)
13: Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.


In Christ, who gives life everlasting,
Brian

 

1. They never were. True justification results in an enduring faith.

2. No it doesn't. Paul was confident that he would receive the reward. He assured us that the same is true for all who love his coming.

Many people will acknowledge that Christ is God, he died on the cross for sin, he rose from the dead, etc., and still be lost. For these folks, no matter what they tell you, the object of their faith was not Christ. </font>[/QUOTE]The Parable of the sower belies your position on this. Some seed fell on rocky soil, sprouted and grew but when the hot weather and lack of water set in, the plant dies. The seed did exactly what it was supposed to do, but the conditions were not right for sustained growth. There are many who need to be transplanted into good soil where they can continue to grow, but then never get that chance due to their environment. They start out as believers but lose their belief due to circumstances.

Actually, no one is saved until judgment. That is the place where God determines their faith condition and casts the unbelievers into the lake of fire. And in reality, you either have faith in Jesus the Christ or you do not have faith. Those who have such faith when they die this natural life, bear the sign of the Holy Spirit and are spared from the second death. Those who do not have faith in God when they die are not marked by the Holy Spirit and get cast into the lake of fire.

 

The Parable of the sower belies this OSAS situation.

 

Yeslew, Many people differ on the parable you cited but I have always seen the seed that sprouted and blew away and the one that grew and was chked out as never having been believers. You see we are the soil, not the seed or the plant. God's word is the seed. It must root in us the soil for us to be saved. The examples of the plants that started to grow are examples of people who are interested in God's word but the root never grows. In the end the soil (person) was no good. Sorry for that quick version of that argument but time is limited.

In Christ,
Brian

 

The real question though, Brian, is WHEN will a believer drink this 'water'?

God Bless,
Kelly

 

Come on Guys,

the sower cast seed...

Gods "spirit"..is the seed. prepackaged to grow.

we are the soil. the seed doesnt die in reality. its stunted because of unconditioned nutrients within the soil...primarily..faith

if the sower parable is somewhat parallel with real life:
for every seed cast by the sower, 3 of the 4 failed to germinate. I see in society many types of believers at different levels of belief and knowledge. all seeds germinated yet failed to grow in the believer. and for reasons within the parable
stunted the growth of the seed.

1st seed..satan took the "word" (wisdom)
God teaches us in 2 parts..wisdom and understanding...satan took the wisdom. believer is confused in conclusion of knowledge..

(remember) wisdom and understanding combined together equals to a believers "knowledge". one part without the other is useless. like book knowledge without experience..In Gods classroom. one without the other is confusing and useless.
sorta like faith without works.
or and unknown tounge without the interpretation.

2nd seed. when tried or persecuted, were offended.
we must learn from our savior by "dying to self". humility is a vital ingredient for the seed to grow. remember the rich young man. "Give up all you have". also when we accept Gods methods, as in accepting Jesus His Christ, as "our high priest to the father, when we pray for forgiveness". remember the commandments (love God, Love man)

3rd seed. oohh, the cares of the world caught their attention. God has no competition. He is sovereign.
lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and pride of life. the three enemies that we have to all face..or we can call them the world, flesh and devil. here specifically names the world..idols. anything we hold onto to help us to please God..in most cases..its the law.

really when one looks at the parable the three enemies are represented.
1st seed..satan (pride of life)
2nd seed..flesh. or lust of the flesh
3rd seed..the world..idols or lust of the eyes

and the only example of growth..

4th seed. good soil. believer did all the right things necessary to learn and grow the seed within.

30..child stage. 60..young man stage (overcomer)
and 100..the father stage.

child stage requires christ to be high priest. Young man can speak to father in Jesus "Name" (also accepts Jesus as lord).
and father. full mature christian faith.

all three are levels within Gods classroom of sanctification and all christians learn and experince the same lesson plans exactly.
we learn each idea upon idea, and concept upon concept.

more like a child in kindergarden. they doesnt start out learning astrophysics.they progress in a specific order. idea upon idea

each spiritual lesson is learned and tried one after another, in the pace of the believer, with the Holy spirit as our personal teacher. wisdom and understanding..each lesson taking two parts combined to mean anything to the believer.

30, 60, 100..we can see this in the OT tabernacle.
the tribe (children) is in the outer court.
the priest (young men) could enter the tabernacle.
the High priest (father) only could enter holy of holies.

reference heb 6 and 1 John 2

seed, born again, baby, child, young man, father.

we all face the same enemies and the same proceedures and lessons in sanctification.
and eventually, we all reach the same conclusions in knowledge of self and God and his plans for mankind.

and notice I didnt mention that the seed died within them or they lost the seed in my interpretation.

it just failed to grow...

 

Hi Gunther,

You wrote, "They never were. True justification results in an enduring faith."

From your answer, I may conclude that such an individual who knew existentially with complete confidence that he was saved was not saved after all.

Thus, the simple, logical conclusion is that no Christian can have absolute assurance of his/her salvation. This is - what we call - a "no-brainer".

Even if once-for-all justification is admitted along with the doctrines of irresistible grace and the perseverence of the saints (5-Point Calvinism), no Christian would be able to say that he/she knows infallibly that they are saved because there is always the chance that they aren't one of the elect, as promising as their situation may seem.

 

"From your answer, I may conclude that such an individual who knew existentially with complete confidence that he was saved was not saved after all.

Thus, the simple, logical conclusion is that no Christian can have absolute assurance of his/her salvation. This is - what we call - a "no-brainer"."

So really there are only two options:

If the non-OSAS people are right, then salvation isn't assured. But the hope of salvation is.

If the OSAS people are right, then salvation isn't assured because one can't be sure they are saved, using your argument. In fact, I think no ability to know where you stand before the Lord would even diminish your assurance for the hope of salvation.,

 

Brian:

Jesus himself proclaimed man could leave him and be lost. In John 6:66-71,the Bible says,From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
The Bible says in Acts 1:25,That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Question: what is the penalty of transgressing God's Law? Where was Judas' own place?

The Bible says in John 5:17,All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

The penalty for transgressing God's law is damnation. In Revelation 20:10, the Bible says, And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. The Bible says in Revelation 22:15, For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Ananias and Sapphira lied. If they failed to repent of the sin, they would be lost eternally. See Rev.22:15.

In Acts 8, Simon the sorcerer becomes a Christian. Acts 8:12-14. In verse 18, Simon offers money to the apostles for the power to impart miraculous gifts. Peter, in verse 20 and 21 tells Simon his money was to perish with thee. One perishes unless he repents of sin. See Luke 13:3. Therefore, Simon is told to repent of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if the thought of thine heart be forgiven thee. Acts 8:22. Peter proclaims to Simom he is in the gall of bitterness and the bond of iniquity. Acts 8: 23. Simon asks them to pray for his forgiveness and obvious reference to him confessing he has done wrong.

The text clearly teaches that a Christian can sin and be lost.

Hymaneus and Alexander of I Tim.1:18-20, were Christians who had become shipwrecked concerning the Faith. I Tim. 1:19. These men had blasphemed and were given over to Satan. According to Rev. 20: 10, where is the devil in eternity, and who is with him? See Rev. 20;10,15. The obvious implication from the text is one who is on board the ship of the faith may become shipwrecked and be lost.

The expression " the faith" is a reference to the Christian system of the gospel. see Jude 3, Acts 6;7; 13:8; 14:22; 16:5. One must, first, be on the ship of faith to become shipwrecked. It is impossible to be shipwrecked without being on the ship!!

 

Hi Frank , Haven't seen you around much. Hope you have been well

If you would have started your post with a short refute of what Jesus meant by "living water" and "never thirst again" your post would have more weight. I will hopefully have time to refute your post sometime today or tonight.

In Christ,
Brian

 

The real question though, Brian, is WHEN will a believer drink this 'water'?

God Bless,
Kelly </font>[/QUOTE]Ok, since you skipped me, I'll cut to the chase.

It does NOT say that the water is in us now, or that it is sprining now, or that it is everlasting NOW.

It says "the water that I SHALL GIVE him SHALL BE in him a well springing up into everlasting life". That says that He WILL give it (future tense) and the water that He will give WILL be (future tense) springing up INTO (will turn into, or become) everlasting life (future tense).

I must say, no one here in the ANTI OSAS camp believes that a believer can 'lose' their salvation. You, as a faithful follower of Christ, could not 'lose' your salvation. We believe that a person can GIVE UP their salvation, by blatantly sinning, and refusing to repent, and living in sin on purpose, and turning their back on God. THAT is not 'losing' something. That, my friend, is THROWING something away.

You are just as saved today as you will be the day you die. You believe your salvation is secure, because you have a relationship with Christ. You live daily in His prescence. RIGHT????

You are right.

If that were to change though, so would your eternal security.

That would be YOUR doing though. God wouldn't 'pull the rug' out from under you because you said a cuss word when you stubbed your toe, or looked too long at that pretty lady in your office!

It would take you making an about face from the faithful, trusting relationship you have now, for you to no longer be saved.

Make sense?

God Bless,
Kelly

 

Bro Adam,

There is an assurance of salvation that is true and not too difficult to understand.

Salvation is a free gift of God that comes with Faith in Jesus, which comes from "Hearing" (taking into one's self) the Word of God. Said another way, "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God, Not of yourselves, it (salvation) is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."

Not of works. There are two kinds of works, works of unrighteousness (sin) and works of righteousness (doing good to others). Scriptures say that salvation is not of works, but what about sin? Jesus' death upon the cross, and the spilling of his blood for the eyes of the world to see, paid the penalty for the sins of the world. So sins will not be held against us, therefore evil works which is sin cannot impede our salvation.

Well what about good works? Scriptures tell us that all of us have different 'gifts', talents, role assignments, stations in life, etc. Therefore, one can do greater works than another and thereby obtain "bragging rights". God eliminated works from salvation for that very reason. He is not interested in our abilities, only in our faith in His only begotten son.

So we have nothing remaining by which we receive salvation except by our individual faith in Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah! So what then do we do? We must remain steadfast in our faith in Jesus Christ. We must be the good soil in which the seed of faith takes eternal root. We must prevail to the end in our faith in Jesus, for as sure as we do, we are saved! Salvation is not a temporal condition, it is an eternal condition. Faith however can be temporal, and once faith dies within us, our salvation goes with it.

 

Yelsew,

What about this though:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Although your last post was well written, and makes allot of sense, it doesn't fit with this verse!

What do you think this verse is saying?

God Bless,
Kelly

 

Brian:
The context of John 4:13,14 teaches us the following:
1. Salvation is a gift from God. vs.10.
2. The Savior provides the salvation.( God's gift). vs.10.
3. The Savior gives the conditions for salvation. vs.1-12. Drinketh of the living water. vs.14.
4. The one who drinks of the water is saved. vs.14.
One must conclude that the individual must drink of spiritual water to be saved.


The text does not declare,imply or by example support once saved always saved. Rather, it teaches us the necessity of drinking the living water as contrasted (BUT) to the physical water.

The phrase drinketh of this water shall thirst again in verse 13 is a present participle denoting continuous action. The same phrase of verse 14 is an Aorist Subjunctive which refers to Undefined Action. Therefore, grammatically, a case for once saved always saved cannot be made.

However, in John 6:54 the present participle is used in reference to the flesh and blood of Christ as it pertains to eating and drinking. This does denote a continuous spiritual feasting on Christ. It is obvious that one who eats the flesh, and drinks the blood continously, must also drink of the water continuosly, if he is to have spiritual life. All three elements provide life, if and only if, one continues to eat and drink of them.

In the case of the blood, one must walk in the light as he is in the light to be continuously cleansed from our sins through repentance.I John 1:7.
In the case of the bread one must eat of the word of God to be saved. Mat. 4:4.

In the case of the water, the word provided by the spirit must continuously be drank to be saved. John 6:63.

Finally, To assert once saved always saved from John 4:13,14 results in the following:
1. The Bible is aligned against itself. See previous post.
2. The Bible does not harmonize with the totality of evidence. See previous post.
3. The Bible is not the divine will of God because it is flawed.

Therefore, one must reject once saved always saved as a Biblical teaching.

 

Originally posted by Frank:
&gt;&gt;In the case of the blood, one must walk in the light as he is in the light to be
&gt;&gt;continuously cleansed from our sins through repentance.I John 1:7.

Hi Frank - sorry to chime in on this so late.
I am not sure that I follow your thought process here. Here is the verse:

But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we haue fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. [1599 Geneva Bible]

You have used the adverb "continuously" which is not in the text.

&gt;&gt;The phrase drinketh of this water shall thirst again in verse 13
&gt;&gt;is a present participle denoting continuous action.

Not sure about Greek, but in English a present participle denotes current action.

&gt;&gt;In the case of the water, the word provided by the spirit must
&gt;&gt;continuously be drank to be saved. John 6:63.

Is this a typo? John 6:63 does not address this subject.

&gt;&gt;Therefore, one must reject once saved always saved as a Biblical teaching.

I strongly disagree with you here, but am interested in your thoughts.

 

If one willfully sins after knowing the truth, is there another sacrificial Lamb of God who will die for the atonement of that Sin? NO! The Christ's Atonement is a once for ALL Atonement. If one willfully enters into sin after being saved, that one is turning one's back on the atonement! One is choosing one's own path!

There will never be another Atonement! You can however, repent of your sin, Confess your sin, and be forgiven your sin as in 1 John 1:8-10 If we confess, He is Just, which was written to Christians, not to the unsaved, just as the Hebrews passage above was written to Christians.

However, if you continue in your sin willfully, there is no hope for you even though the Christ's Atonement covers your sins. The reason is this. If you go back to sinning, what faith do you have in the one who conquered sin? Salvation is through our faith, and nothing else. Sin is paid in full by Jesus, Works cannot save, so if you have no faith in Jesus to do his will, then you will not be saved. It really is that simple. If you do have faith, you have the power to overcome sin.

Here's a different perspective from the Old Testament

I believe this is God telling Cain that if you live well, you are accepted, and sin does not enter the picture. But if you do not live well, sin is at the door waiting for you, for you are the desire of sin. But by living well you rule over sin!

 

it constantly amazes me how people take verses comepletely out of text. eachof these vs. belong in a chapter and a specific book i suggest that you place them where they belong and not where you want them.

 

Yelsew,

Correct me if I am mistaken, but based on your last post I would say that you are NOT in the OSAS camp!

I agree with all you said, what's different between you and I on this point?

Do you believe that those who sin willfully after coming to the knowledge of the truth, were not saved to begin with, or do you agree that this verse is referencing those who came to the SAVING knowledge of Jesus Christ, the FINAL Lamb, and then LEFT that knowledge for SIN?

God Bless,
Kelly

 

Kelly, if I may, I am both OSAS and NON OSAS. I believe that if one believes in Jesus Christ, that person is OS. If the person never stops believing in Jesus Christ that person is also AS. Therefore if one is saved, and stops believing, and we all know at least one who has stopped believing in Jesus as savior, then that person is OS, but not AS. God Gave us the power within us to believe and to continue to believe, He also gave us the power, or weakness, to be persuaded contrary to Jesus. For some reason some fall away from salvation by ceasing to believe or by having their faith ridiculed by pals and chums, or by losing the enchantment that believing brings. It is these that often become the vilest of sinners, like Larry Flynt for example.

Regarding the Hebrews scripture, I do not believe those two verses are stand-alone scriptures and to grasp the meaning one must read most of the chapter to see what the author is saying. However, if one hears the truth then goes right on sinning it is equivalent to one seeing the warning sign that says "bridge washed out ahead", but continues traveling at the same rate of speed disregarding the warning. Eventually his car is where the bridge is not, with nothing but very hard ground or deep mud, or deep water to slow the car down. Those conditions bring a speeding car to a sudden stop, usually killing the occupant.

Essentially the Author of Hebrews is saying that if you have the knowledge of the right thing to do, but do the wrong thing, there will be no one to save you. That is what warning signs are for, to warn travelers in the absence of savior.

 

Yelsew,

Well put!

I agree.

I would have posted the whole chapter, but I knew that those who took what I said seriously would go look at the context, which completely explains where the author is coming from and going to.

Your post was right on.

God Bless,
Kelly