If you believe you can lose your salvation, are you really saved?

BrianT

Carson
[QUOTEOur salvation can only be lost by commiting a mortal sin (see 1 John 5) such as murder, adultery, fornication, etc., which entails our free choice to reject the gift of God's grace. This is what the Prodigal Son did in Jesus' parable recounted in Luke, Chapter 15.[/QUOTE]
1. Your theology is biases, for it is based on a covenantal theology which the Scripture does not teach.
2. This is why the prodigal son was never lost. He remained a son. He was born a son and was never disinherited. He was backslidden, but not disinherited. He was never lost. He did not lose his salvation. He may have lost some reward; fellowship with his Father. But he never lost the relationship that he had with his father—that of being a son of his father.
3. Your understanding of 1John 5:16,17 is flawed. It does not teach mortal sin. There is only one kind of sin. Sin is sin. Sin is a transgression of the law (1John 3:4). The Bible defines it there for us. James 2:10 says that all sin is wrong. It is just as bad to lie as it is to murder. The consequence may be different but both are sin.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
--Sin is sin. There is no difference between venial and mortal.

James 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
--No where does it say mortal. That is a misinterpretation put in there by the Catholic Church. It says: “There is a sin unto death.” The question is: What is a sin unto death?

Annanias and Sapphira commited a sin unto death.
Those mentioned in 1Cor.11:30 committed a sin unto death.

God’s Spirit will strive only so long with the wickedness of a believer. If he continues in his sin God may take him out of this world by death. Pray for individuals that continue in sin that they may repent of their sin, lest God does bring a sentence of death upon them. It is better that they die by the hand of God’s judgement and their life shortened on this earth, lest they continue in their sin and do even more damage to the cause of Christ and face an even greater judgement at the judgement seat of Christ. It is not speaking of a specific sin. It is talking of any sin that brings reproach to the name of Christ. In 1Cor.11, it was the abuse of the Lord’s Table that brought the hand of judgement upon the Corinthians, and some were killed by God because of it. They did not lose their salvation. They died an early death, and went to Heaven.

“beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.”
The entire chapter warns against the error of false teachers. Beware of false teachers and their teaching. If they are led away in some false doctrine it does not mean that they will lose their salvation. The Galatians were led away into false doctrine but Paul never hints that they lost their salvation. They were led away by the false teaching of the Judaizing teachers, but they were still saved. These believer had to contend with those that were: “unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” (3:16) Their salvation was hardly in question. If it was Paul would not have exhorted them to “grow in the grace and knowledge of Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,” right in the very same verse.

[QUOTEBrethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that ... he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. (James 5:19,20)[/QUOTE]
See above. You already referred to this verse.

You have taken this verse right out if its context Carson, and tried to make it mean something that it doesn’t mean. In plain English look what it says: (I’ll reword it for you) IF you ATTEMPT to be justified by the law, you have become estranged from Christ, and have fallen from Grace. This is a hypothetical and conditional statement. Paul is saying that IF your salvation is dependent on keeping the law (which it is not), then you are fallen from grace, then you are separated from Christ.
Look at the context; at some of the other verses in the same passage:
5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

This is another verse taken out of its context. The context of chapters 9, 10, and 11 discuss God’s dealing with the nation of Israel.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

See what he says just a few verses later on:
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The gifts and calling of God are without repentance. God will not change his mind. Our salvation is sure. He will not take away eternal life.
Verse 22 is speaking of a contrast between Israel and the Gentile believers. Israel has fallen away for a time. But in the end they will be saved as a nation (verse 26). But now the Gentiles (us) have obtained mercy. There is somewhat of another contrast here. Those that do not continue in the goodness of God are not true believers in the first place. See 1John 2:19.

Why do you persist in taking verses out of context? Who are these verses talking about Carson? Read the context. Look at the preceding verses:

17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

These are hardly believers. They are false teachers. They are not even saved people that Peter is talking about. They haven’t lost their salvation. They never had any salvation to begin with.

Paul is speaking of the bride that Christ will present to the Father “holy and blameless, and above reproach in His sight.” Then he says if you continue in the faith. Every true believer will continue in the faith. That doesn’t mean that they will not sin; but they will continue. They will not lose their salvation. I have no fear of ever losing my salvation and I can make the dogmatic statement that I never will. I will continue in my faith.

Paul was writing to those who were thinking of returning to Judaism. The people that he was writing to may have been a mixed multitude: that is part Jewish believers and part Jewish unbelievers Some of them had heard plainly the Word of God, and the plan of salvation. They had “tasted the heavenly gift,” a phrase possibly referring to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. If that be the case, there may come a time in a person’s life when they have so spurned the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and go back to their old religious system (Judaism) that God’s Spirit will no longer strive with them. It is not talking about losing one’s salvation. It is speaking of those who have clearly rejected Christ, having had the great opportunity to do so in the past.

Every believer is an overcomer (1John 5:4). Every believer’s name is written in the Lamb’s book of life. Every believer’s name will never be blotted out of that book. This was reassurance to the believers at Sardis, and encouragement for them to continue in the faith.

In the context of this verse, the wilful sin is the rejection of Jesus Christ. There is no more sacrifice for sin other than receiving Him as Saviour. This is what the Book of Hebrews is all about. Christ is our only sacrifice.

Again this is an admonition to those that did not believe. He also compared them to the unbelieving Israelites. He told them not to harden their hearts against God in unbelief in the same passage.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

A true believer, as noted above, will continue in the faith. Paul uses the example from the Old Testament, that not everyone from the Old Testament was a believer. Not every one continued in the faith. Not everyone made it to the promised land. Continuance in the faith is not a prerequisite to being a believer; it is a result. A believer WILL continue in the faith. He will persevere in the faith. That is a given.
DHK

 

There were several who posted with 'pro' OSAS views, this is to you:

If we take the view that once we trust Christ to save us NOTHING, not even ourselves can change that, then we have merely traded being slaves to sin, to being slaves to Jesus.

We have free will from birth to death. Submitting ourselves to Christ does not remove the free will that we are endowed with.

The argument that if a person 'falls' away from belief means that they weren't really ever 'saved' is ludicrious. Is Jesus not powerful enough to save? Who can agree with that, and still claim that they read the Bible???? A person is sealed until the day of redemption at the moment they trust Christ. THEY are the only ones who can remove that seal! It CAN be removed!

Look at Peter! He was a close follower of Christ, and he denied Him THREE times in one day! Some will say, he wasn't really truly converted until AFTER that happened, but keep in mind, he was a FAITHFUL FOLLOWER of Christ (that is what Christian means) until he got scared, and lost sight of what was real. He did something, that the Bible says will DAMN you. Jesus said, if you deny ME before men, I will deny YOU before my Father. Yet we all know, that after the death, and resurrection of Christ, Peter was a faithful witness, and servant of Christ.

Was he 'not really saved' to begin with? I doubt that very seriously.

Carson posted a very large list of verses that show that unrepented/ unconfessed sin in our lives can remove us, by our own doing from the hand of God. What does the Bible say? It says that nothing can separate us from the LOVE of God. It DOES NOT say that nothing can separate us from the Grace of God.

Once saved always saved goes hand in hand with universalism.

The choice to choose Christ must ALWAYS be a free choice. God does not force any man to serve Him.

Before, during, and after a person chooses Christ.

Has anyone touched on backsliding yet?

THAT, my friends, is an invention of man.

The Bible says that if a man 'puts his hand to the plough' and then looks back, to Egypt, to the world, to the life they lived before, is NOT FIT for the Kingdom of God!

That DOES NOT fit with the 'backslidden' fable we hear at the altar calls in protestant churches! According to the Bible, that person is LOST. And you CANNOT deny, that this person DID AT ONE TIME have his hand ON THE PLOUGH! They WERE 'saved'! And then, having turned back to their old sinful life, they were NOT FIT for the Kingdom of God!

They LOST it!

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

You have to BE something before you could draw back! What did 'they' have here? FAITH, that led to the SAVING OF THE SOUL! Those who 'drew back' WERE LOST!

God Bless,
Kelly

 

Your post is full of contradictions and illogical conclusions. Take just the last one for example.
You quote verse 38 and 39, but then try to demonstrate from verse 38 alone that one can be lose their salvation, when Paul clearly says in verse 39 but WE are not of them that draw back unto perdition. Obviously he was referring to a different group of people in verse 38 when he includes himself in verse 39 among the saved believers who do NOT draw back unto perdition because they have eternal life, and will never lose it.
DHK

 

From DKH -

Brother Ed

 

I don't deny the very words of Christ; in fact you do. You misunderstand them, misapply them, and set up a false system of doctrine surrounding them. The only covenant that Christ was speaking of was a covenant of salvation. The blood that was offered on the cross of Calvary paid the price for our sins. We accept that sacrifice for our sins, believe that he paid the penalty for our sins as he promised (covenanted) then he does what he promised he would do--grants us forgiveness of sins and gives us eternal life. That is all.

The covenant most often referred to is with the Jews God made a covenant with the nation of Israel. We are not Israel. If so, what tribe are you from. It is the nation of Israel that will be restored as a literal nation in a time in the future yet to be determined. Christ will come again. He will come first for the believers at the rapture. Then He will come to set up His Kingdom, and at that time the Jewish Nation will look to Him as their Messiah and be saved as a nation. Why? Because Christ made a covenant with them which can never be broken nor replaced. Replacement theology is just another heresy.

It is your covenantal theology, a very ungodly theology, that makes you look very foolish in your interpretation of Scripture.
DHK

 

Hi Gunther,

You wrote, "None of those passages support the idea you can lose your salvation."

Well, that's a great opinion, but - from what I and countless other Christians can see - they do indeed not only support, but clearly teach that one can lose one's salvation.

I can just as easily say that John 14:6 doesn't teach that Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I can just as easily assert that I can use this same passage to show that Jesus Christ isn't the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Of course, that would be ridiculous, and that is how I see your response to my post. It's a ridiculous opinion/assertion without any substance. In my own eyes, it's a blatant rejection of the clear sense of Scripture.

If you're really interested in what the Bible teaches, then you - as a Christian in love with God and his Revelation to us - should address me with Scripture, not with opinions. As the old Wendy's commercial puts it, "Show me the beef."

You also wrote, "According to you, if certain sins are committed, that nullifies the work of Christ, his ability to keep a person, etc."

Yes, in fact, Scripture does teach that if certain sins are committed, the work of Christ (essentially, his sacrifice) is nullified (i.e., no longer of value). It doesn't say this in these exact words; what it does say is:

"For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins" (Heb 10:26).

 

Me2,
You asked,

No, My spirit did not believe in Jesus prior to hearing the Word, through which I came to faith in Jesus Christ. What happened to me when I believed is a "renewed spirit" that now believes in Jesus the Christ. So long as I believe in God, in the name of Jesus, I am sanctified unto salvation, and everything that I do, I do for the Honor and Glory God. I need not be concerned whatever about Justification, that was done for my by Jesus when He died upon the cross in my stead.

We humans ARE spirit. In order for God to come to man and give us "a new free spirit", He would have to replace us! That does not happen! No where in scripture does it say that God replaces us or "our spirit"!

We are spirit! When the flesh dies the spirit continues to live!

It seems that you do not understand the image of God.

Jesus said that God is Spirit and those who worship must worship in spirit, and in truth. If God is spirit and we are in His image, then we too must be spirit!

Jesus also said in John 6:63.

Since the flesh dies, and therefore has nothing to offer, and since every grave, save for one, remains occupied with the remains of the flesh in some form of decomposition to its base elements, the spirit is all we have that Jesus came to seek and to save!

In order to have a correct understanding of scripture one must have at least a correct understanding of those for whom the scriptures exist, and that "whom" is the human that God created in his own image. God requires no scriptures to live by, He is the author of all Scripture. Scriptures are for man, because man is the created being that knows very little of God, but whom God loved so much that he gave his only begotten son to us to teach us about God, and then to Atone for our sins by dying in our stead.

The human is spirit residing in a "tent of flesh" as Paul calls it. We do not get a new spirit, our only spirit which is dead to God because of sin, gets renewed. The spirit is the life of the flesh! When the spirit departs, the flesh dies!

 

Yelsew, What?

We will always be human beings..forever.

Body, Soul, and Spirit.

the real "image of man" is the spirit of the resurrected man, Jesus Christ..The God/Man.

we get his spirit, We keep our soul (well after being renewed)
and after our physical death of our old body, we get a new one.

and no, we will not meet in heaven without bodies...

or else how would we: see,hear,speak,feel,taste.etc,etc,etc.

(So I'm thinking, we'll really need that new earth promised)

...

and God really did save you before you chose him, or else how could you have heard him calling you ?.

answer: through spiritual eyes and ears of your new faith, that comes with your new spirit.

there is no free will on mans part, in Gods initial choice of who HE puts his spirit into.

He chooses, and your new spirit is immediately drawn to "find Him".

and then and only then you can hear "spiritual ideas concerning God".
Not before.

 

FAITH, cometh by HEARING, and HEARING by the WORD of God! That is How I came to faith, by hearing and Believing the Word of God preached, taught, and read. Not by being converted before being converted!

 

Yelsew, you wrote, "Since the flesh dies, and therefore has nothing to offer, and since every grave, save for one, remains occupied with the remains of the flesh in some form of decomposition to its base elements, the spirit is all we have that Jesus came to seek and to save!"

Do you deny the resurrection of the body?

 

The only covenant that Christ was speaking of was a covenant of salvation.

EXACTLY!!!!

We enter into a covenantal relationship with God as our Father by the adoption of grace as children of the covenant. And IF you knew ANYTHING about how a covenant works, you would know that in order to enter a covenant, you must make an oath/sanction promise and enter by means of whatever method which the greater imposes upon the lesser (Suzerainity covenantalism of the OT). God has choosen the oath of baptism to replace the oath of circumcision. It is His covenant, not yours, and HE, not you, set the terms 2000 years ago. Your dysfunctionalism.....ummmmm, I mean dispensationalism.....does not change the fact that it was God who set the rules and gave the covenant of salvation, with all its attendant requirements, to the world. Those who obey and keep the covenant faithful to the end shall indeed inherit the promised inheritance -- eternal life. Those who don't -- won't. It is just that simple.

Brother Ed

 

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved"
God's covenants are always one-sided. Just as they were with Abraham so are they are with us. Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. The only requirement is belief. We accept God's gift of salvation by faith. God's covenant is by grace and grace alone. There is only one party involved. It is God's promise of salvation to us. It is God's covenant of grace to us. I just have to receive it. I make no promise with God. I make no bargain with God. I simply receive his free gift of salvation by faith and faith alone. The covenant is entirely one-sided. It always has been.

God's covenant, that is spoken of primarily in the Bible is with the Jews. The church does not replace Israel. He has not forgotten Israel.
DHK

 

Hi Gunther,

You wrote, "If a person departs, it is because they were never truly part to begin with."

Which leads us to the next question, "How can you say that you are one who will not depart in the future if you may very well depart in the future?" Or, stated otherwise, "How can you say that you are saved if you may very well have never been saved to begin with?"

Existentially speaking, you have no infallible way of knowing that you are one of the elect until the day you are judged by Jesus Christ. If you say that you do - well - that is illogical because those who thought they did know that they were saved infallibly before they "fell away" were apparently wrong.

And you may very well be "wrong" as well.

 

Which is why 4 point Calvinism does so well in that case - among all the other forms of Calvinism claiming to also hold to OSAS.

4 Point Calvinism does not hold to the teaching about Perserverence - for that group you can "Go bad" and are still saved. Your "Assurance" is rock solid in that case.

In Christ,

Bob

 

4-Point Calvinism may be intellectually honest, but it does so at the expense of a great deal of Christian revelation. The proposition that one may "go bad" and still be saved is one that runs so contrary to a good portion of Scripture that it is untenable from the start.

 

Certainly this "Arminian" would have to agree.

However assurance of salvation is certainly available to the Arminians as well as the 4 point Calvinists. For Romans 8 declares "The Holy Spirit bears witness with OUR spirit that WE are the children of God". As John said of the 3 Witnesses - they bear witness that He has given us eternal life.

In Christ,

Bob

[ June 24, 2003, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

No, I do not deny a bodily resurrection, but no one knows the consistancy or composition of that resurrection body! There is no reason to believe it will be a body of flesh, bone, and blood. So, if you know unequivocably what form that body will be, feel free to share that information.

 

Your post is full of contradictions and illogical conclusions. Take just the last one for example.
You quote verse 38 and 39, but then try to demonstrate from verse 38 alone that one can be lose their salvation, when Paul clearly says in verse 39 but WE are not of them that draw back unto perdition. Obviously he was referring to a different group of people in verse 38 when he includes himself in verse 39 among the saved believers who do NOT draw back unto perdition because they have eternal life, and will never lose it.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]DHK,
I often wonder if you read the same Bible that I do. Are you blind? Or just seriously brainwashed? There were people WITH THEM, that DREW BACK. You HAVE TO be somewhere in order to DRAW BACK. The 'place' that Paul and the others who DID NOT draw back were was in a state of 'faith that leads to the saving of the soul'. Those who 'drew back' were ALSO in a state of faith that would have led to the saving of the soul! The ONLY difference between Paul and the faithful, and those who drew back, is the SIMPLE fact that THEY drew back!

BOTH were in a state of faith that would lead to the saving of the soul. Some drew back to perdition, and then the others continued faithfully in faith.

This is a really simple concept. Those 2 verses TOGETHER were posted because it takes both to see that there was ONE group, and they ALL were living in faith that would one day lead to eternal life. SOME drew back to sin, and the others did not. The ones who drew back to sin, God had no pleasure in them, and they were not fit for the Kingdom of God. Those who remained in 'faith' will obtain eternal life.

Simple.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

Thank you!

I agree with you, from the perspective of Romans 6 & 8 but they are not referring to Salvation, but to the manner in which we are to conduct ourselves as Christians. They are both about dying to this body of flesh, and living in the FREEDOM that Christ has given us to no longer be slaves to sin. That freedom DOES NOT come with a price. For us to concede that living in the FREEDOM that Christ has enabled us with is a NEW slavery, is nothing less than blasphemous in my opinion. This new life that we have in Christ is a life of FREEDOM. We STILL can, and WILL sin. It is the SLAVERY, or BONDAGE of sin that we are freed from. We still TOTALLY have the 'free will' to sin, if we decide to do so. We are not suddenly 'bound' to live sinless lives. It is the exact opposite. With the freedom from sin that Christ gives us we are now LOOSED from the power of sin, that once reigned in our bodies. To be in Christ, is to be FREE.

So you don't believe that we have a free will? How can you believe that? Do you think that you had no choice in choosing Christ in the first place? I can concede that He chose us, but the idea that we had NO CHOICE in choosing to respond to His call is rediculous.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Joshua CHOSE to serve the Lord. Free will.

Ok, firstly, free will is the ability to do whatever you are able to do, regardless of your nature. I want to fly, but cannot so no amount of 'will' can make it happen. I want to sing in higher octaves, but no amount of 'will' can make that so. I do not want to lose my patience with my kids. THAT is totally and completely possible through the power of the Holy Spirit, but it takes my desire to make that so. God's Spirit cannot MAKE me have more patience with my kids if I don't WANT to have more patience with my kids. As far a the lost never 'wanting to' come to Christ, that doesn't even make any sense. Ever person that has EVER come to Christ, was lost before they did, and it took an act of their own free will to choose to respond to the knock on their hearts door. They had to WANT to come to Christ. Jesus doesn't force them to. It was an act of free will, that was prompted by their desire to obtain eternal life, and a changed life in this one. I don't know about you, but I wanted to come to Christ. I was tired of this sinful life!

Standing alone, I would say sure, but that verse is about something. Let's look at the previous verse:
1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Those who went out from among them, that were never really of them are antichrists. WHO went out from among them? And created a religion that has a different Gospel? AND started a church that allows the worship of things other than Jesus? You figure that one out.

Saying the sinners prayer, and claiming that you are saved does not make you saved. I don't have the slightest problem accepting that! I am in total agreement with you on that one. But I know for a fact that the time in my life when I first submitted myself to Christ, was REAL, I meant it, I served God unwaveringly for 3 years as an IFB. I left that denomination and COMPLETELY turned my back on God. I KNEW for a fact that I had Salvation. I also KNEW for a fact that I had grieved the Holy Spirit (who seals us) with my behavior and extensive refusal to repent of that sin. I found myself doing things that ONLY a reprobate mind would allow. If it had not been for the prayers of several people who knew me before I 'fell away' and 'drew back' I would have undoubtably died in my sins. They were all praying for God to draw me back to Himself, and PRAISE GOD that He did!

I look forward to it!

God Bless,
Kelly