If you believe you can lose your salvation, are you really saved?

[Yelsew]

OK, Me2, I started a Topic Titled "What is FAITH?" But by your response here it seems to me there are other topics that must be started too?

Hi Yelsew,

It appears we have some mis-communications concerning the definitions of faith. I think it would be a great idea to start a fresh thread on What is faith and how do we come by it....
for instance..

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

no boasting of anything..even thinking and choosing

1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

wisdom of men, didnt man write the bible, preach, i mean..interpret..and write commentaries, and...


1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Comments following...

just by these scriptures mentioned..we see grace is through faith. that it is of God and not men. and that it is a gift of the Holy spirit.

God does not require Faith, so the faith you mention must be our faith in God. God does not require us to have faith in Him in order for Him to behave according to his GRACE! Grace does not come to us through faith! Salvation is God's gift to us who have faith! Salvation then is a gift of God's Grace to those who have FAITH! Without God's GRACE, we could not come to faith because our first sin would be our last sin because the wage for sin is death! God, behaving in accordance with his Grace withholds his justice from us, so that we can learn of God, and believe, that is, come to faith, which is the determining factor in our Salvation.

it is not of our powers, yeslew..it is all of God. the wisdom, the understanding, the method of delivery..and the capability of accepting, all that God gives man. the delivery system is of God..Faith.

NO! Faith is not the delivery system of God. FAITH COMETH BY HEARING, AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD!

he states..we accept.now go further with that idea..
does he speak to our mind. no. he speaks to our spirit..oops, I mean his spirit. yes, he's speaking to himself. and we're listening in over his shoulder. If he is God, and he doesnt Lie. then everything should be accepted as truth, right?

BUNK! God's Holy Word speaks to our mental capacity with reads, sees, and hears the words that God has preserved for us to read, see, and hear with our GOD GIVEN human abilities to read, see, and hear. Those who do not believe have the very same capabilities that those who believe have. There is no difference among men. God gave all mankind a brain with which to process what the eyes see, the ears hear, the mouth speaks, etc. He also told us to use what HE GAVE us in the CREATION!

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

some dont believe he's God, nor sovereign, nor loves, nor forgives, etc.etc.etc. now we see whats stopping up our ears from simply accepting the basic truths as we listen over his shoulder.

denying truth can be described as lack of faith.
we're stopping the delivery of truth from occurring due to our choices of our will.

we do nothing but accept freely,..or refuse (gulp).

That's RIGHT, WE, HUMANS, EITHER ACCEPT OR REJECT THE TRUTH! IF WE ACCEPT THE TRUTH WE ARE CALLED BELIEVERS, IF WE REJECT THE TRUTH WE ARE CALLED UNBELIEVERS! BUT IT IS WE HUMANS WHO DO THE ACCEPTING OR REJECTING WITH OUR OWN CAPABILITIES, WITHIN OUR OWN FACULTIES, BY OUR OWN CHOICES! ALL THE INFLUENCES IN OUR DECISIONS ARE EXTERNAL TO US. ALL WE HAVE TO WORK WITH COMES TO US THROUGH OUR GOD GIVEN SENSES! EYES, EARS, NOSE, MOUTH and SKIN.

But what about our spirit? Human spirit is not free to roam, it is mysteriously coupled to our flesh until our flesh dies or is made to lose control of our spirit through trauma or substances (chemistry), or unless drawn from us by God. The human spirit is influenced from "outside" sources too! The Holy Spirit is of God, who is well beyond what and where we can be by our own power. Evil is also of spirits that are outside ourselves, until we let them into us by exercise of our will! By believing in Jesus we allow the Holy Spirit to "indwell us". By refusing to believe in Jesus, we keep the door to our heart closed to the Holy Spirit. By sinning we allow evil to enter, by refusing to sin, we keep the door to our heart closed to evil.

When we accept the truth, and are thus believers, we are said to have faith! and it is our faith by which God SAVES us!
When we reject the truth, we are thus unbelievers, we are said to LACK faith! and it is our lack of faith which CONDEMNS us!

 

[Me2]

Faith in the New Testament is based on
responding to Gods promises to us.

yea or nay.

but theres a twist compared to the Old Testament.
We get a New spirit.

One In which comes prepackaged as if it has already experienced life and conquered death.
one in which is "connected" with God and can never become unconnected. even if we think we're seperated.
we are never seperated.

One in which contains by right, all wisdom, all understanding, all gifts, all fruits.

but we have to accept these promises...
by simply saying..thank you

thats faith.

a child cannot accept or even comprehend this.

the spirit we are given, is the spirit of Jesus christ.

Christ "in" Me2

you might not see this now, but it already is.
Christs bride has his spirit within them..multiplied many times over.

I understand your posts concerning faith..been there 20 years ago.

heres a question? wheres your "Old Spirit".?
havent you already been judged and found guilty ?
wasnt the sentence death?

when you were saved..the process began with you being placed into the death of Christ...IN DEATH.

your old spirit was left there..in death.
if Jesus was resurrected..he is the only spirit that can legally come out of death.

and God our father replaced your old spirit with the righteous spirit of Jesus inside you.

your old spirit is not within you being regenerated or renewed. it had to be destroyed.


this is a requirement of moving forward in your journey in Salvation..to comprehend this.

your old spirit is DEAD..In Death. forever to stay. you have a New spirit inside you Now.
and it is the righteous, sinless, spirit of Christ Himself. the selfsame spirit that our father promised to raise from the dead.

everything proceeds from this spirit.

including faith..it responds. as it always will.

are you listening or just making up what you want to hear. if its reading a book called the bible, rest assured your spirit knows the truths concerning it. unless you want to step in and confuse the interpretations. you know, "add or take away from the book".

you see if we had any faith, It would either be carnal generated from our mind..or a response from the righteous spirit within us.
which one do you think our father would accept as a proper response.?

Me2

ps Ill get to the other thread, this took a long time to assemble and it will take a lot longer with scripture.

 

[Me2]

Again another Response on Faith,

does God Require Faith ?

God exists because he believes he exists...

thats faith..you say wheres the response to God

isnt Faith a response to a fact, truth, promise.
an agreement

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

they agree within themselves...
and the next verse

1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

or should I say..the witness is the spirit of Christ within you..

but you say, where is Me2 in all this...My soul is forever tucked away inside the spirit.

now some scriptures:


Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

thats Gods Faith to christ spirit within Me.
(its all God and none of Me2)

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

that should suffice in the faith response of and to God.

God exist by faith in himself.

Me2

 

[Taufgesinnter]

Originally posted by Gunther:
This is something that I have wondered about for a long time. If a person trusts in their own effort to sustain them and keep themselves from losing their salvation, what is the real object of their faith? Themselves.

I completely reject the idea that a person can lose their salvation. There is not a single text that can support this idea without ignoring or twisting other passages.

So, does anyone else see things the same way?

That was a non sequitur. You took the idea that we are saved by grace through faith--that believers are secure in Christ--and then equated that with self-effort to maintain salvation. Faith is the condition--it isn't meritorious. Jesus said explicitly those actually and really in Him who stopped producing fruit would be cut off and burned--that'd be because they stopped being believers, not because their works had been maintaining them. OSAS cannot be found among the ante-Nicene writers of the early church; the church of the apostles' disciples did not see the Scriptures that way.

All the verses and passages that teach salvation can be lost do so when they are taken at face value. The verses and passages on predestination and election are all in the plural--they refer to corporate election, not particular election of certain individuals. When they are taken at face value instead of being Calvinized, the inspired grammar makes them perfectly in harmony with the other passages already mentioned.

Oh, and this isn't to you in particular but lurkers in general: the last 4 points of TULIP all stand or fall together because each of them is fully dependent on the other 3, so if election is not unconditional, then OSAS is false; if the atonement was a propitiation for the sins of the whole world, then OSAS is false. The elect will be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Who are the elect? The body of Christ. The church is predestined to salvation. Having faith plays a role in whether you are in the church and also whether you remain in the church.

 

[Willow 2]

Originally posted by Gunther:
This is something that I have wondered about for a long time. If a person trusts in their own effort to sustain them and keep themselves from losing their salvation, what is the real object of their faith? Themselves.

I completely reject the idea that a person can lose their salvation. There is not a single text that can support this idea without ignoring or twisting other passages.

So, does anyone else see things the same way?

Yes Gunther i sure do....! I believe what the lord Jesus said to us in his word.... We have everlasting life...AMEN

 

[Taufgesinnter]

I believe what the Lord Jesus said to us in His Word.... We have everlasting life as long as we believe, and we are cast forth to be burned if we fail to abide in Christ and produce no fruit.

 

[Willow 2]

Originally posted by Taufgesinnter:
I believe what the Lord Jesus said to us in His Word.... We have everlasting life as long as we believe, and we are cast forth to be burned if we fail to abide in Christ and produce no fruit.

Amen to that Taufgesinnter: I believe IF a person has truley made the confession from there heart...& really believes with there hearts, then i feel they are saved...& there is no way they can loose there salvation...EVER.

 

[Willow 2]

Originally posted by BrianT:
And yet so many verses warn against falling away...

To me BrainT: Alls that means is you will lose on the rewards he has for you, if you stray off the path. We will be rewarded in heaven for what we have done for his kingdom.

 

[Tazman]

Originally posted by Willow 2:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BrianT:
And yet so many verses warn against falling away...

To me BrainT: Alls that means is you will lose on the rewards he has for you, if you stray off the path. We will be rewarded in heaven for what we have done for his kingdom. </font>[/QUOTE]W2,

Please interpret the following passage WITHIN context with the following questions:

Is Jesus talking to HIS BODY (CHURCH)?

Who was the Letter specifically addressed to?

Were these people all clean at some point and did some get dirty?

Does Jesus have the power to "BLOT" out Sins from the book of life?

Rev 3:1 "To the angel of the church in Sardis write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits[2] of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. 3Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. 4Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. 6He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

 

[Willow 2]

Yes Jesus has the power to blot out our sin's cause he died for all our sin's. Once we confessed our sin's to our lord & savior, our sin's were forgiven.

I believe in my savior & i trust what he promised me...i will not dout his word...he said we have everlasting life if we confess our sin's to him...& that i did.

So therefore i'm not going to guestion my lord & savior's saving grace...i will not guestion his word & i'm not going to guestion rather or not he can save me....cause i know he did....


I'm a OSAS believer in my lord, cause he said it & i believe in him...

 

[Tazman]

Originally posted by Willow 2:
Yes Jesus has the power to blot out our sin's cause he died for all our sin's. Once we confessed our sin's to our lord & savior, our sin's were forgiven.

So you agree that those who were once saved as recorded in the Book of Life could be blotted out by Christ. As you said our sins "WERE" forgiven. Continual repentance/confession keeps us saved as John understood it (1 John 1:8-9). This is why I can appreciate your heart, because even though you claim to believe something based on your tradition you still can understand and won't misinterpret (sometimes) the most direct scriptures to fit your beliefs

Which is a good thing. For example: You state above that Jesus CAN blot out NAMES from the book of life which we most commonly understand that book to contain the names of redeemed believers (saved people), but you also believe the exact opposite that is contrary to Jesus' words, that is OSAS. Thank you for not calling Jesus a Liar to his face

I believe in my savior & i trust what he promised me...i will not dout his word...he said we have everlasting life if we confess our sin's to him...& that i did.

I am not telling you to doubt Jesus, but I am telling you to doubt what you've learned regarding Jesus' teachings. Sometimes people hold on to promises "In a way" that God did not say. The scripture that you apply to yourself when speaking of Gods grace and promises is always referring to the faithful not the Unfaithful. You need to understand the difference, because if you don't you will never understand the fullness of God mercy. Just some advice.

So therefore i'm not going to guestion my lord & savior's saving grace...i will not guestion his word & i'm not going to guestion rather or not he can save me....cause i know he did....

God see a noble heart, as recorded in scripture, of those who question what's taught to them. Even from some one like Paul Acts 17:10-12. Also, how will you know what is true unless you test the spirit of it and since you are not God the main source of your reference should come from comparison with sound scripture. For example: If you have a doctrine that is not Sound in scripture you should rethink it.

And you shouldn't guess rather or not if God can save you, but you should question your unrepentant heart (Isaiah 59:1-3 "Surely the arm of the Lord is not too short to save, nor his ear too dull to hear. But your....)

I'm a OSAS believer in my lord, cause he said it & i believe in him...

I'm not gonna bother to ask you what scripture that Jesus says the person that loses faith after having it will still be saved. You don't seem to hold to those scriptures. But you know what's odd? I never mentioned OSAS in my previous question to you, but after reading the scripture for yourself, you loaded you response with OSAS.

I think the point is obvious but your pride will sustain you. I'm wrong sometimes and I have to admit it, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong all the time. God opposes the proud and give grace to the humble (James 4:6)