This is a quote from another thread. Do you agree with such a statement and should such statements be said at all?
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If you do not hold to "Doctrines of Grace" are you lost?
- Thread starter Revmitchell
- Start date
This is a quote from another thread. Do you agree with such a statement and should such statements be said at all?
PreachTony
Active Member
Not a single person living or dead has the right to question the salvation of someone else, especially over a matter such as what soteriological doctrine they hold to.
As I told another BB member:
That being said, people can make guesses about others based off the evidence witnessed in their lives, but even that is "questionable" at best. Consider the thief on the cross. If, as many do, you consider him saved, you have to admit the apparent evidence a bystander would see, that of a convicted thief being punished, would not lead a person to guess he was saved. It's best not to question anyone's salvation. Rather, leave that between them and the Lord. Our Heavenly Father has a way of sorting things out.
As I told another BB member:
That being said, people can make guesses about others based off the evidence witnessed in their lives, but even that is "questionable" at best. Consider the thief on the cross. If, as many do, you consider him saved, you have to admit the apparent evidence a bystander would see, that of a convicted thief being punished, would not lead a person to guess he was saved. It's best not to question anyone's salvation. Rather, leave that between them and the Lord. Our Heavenly Father has a way of sorting things out.
convicted1
Guest
Nope...I voted for options 2 & 4...
Greektim
Well-Known Member
Your soteriology is certainly misguided and thus lost. But salvifically? No.
Sorry Tim .....I do not understand your response?
Tom Butler
New Member
The Lord saved me when I was nine years old. I had never heard of the Doctrines of Grace. Nor have most children who make professions of faith.
If you do not hold to "Doctrines of Grace" are you lost?
No I do not. You are confused but you are not lost. One of these days Paul Washer needs to show up at your church and teach you and your congregation some things you have failed to do as a pastor.
Plenty of Godly men are not Calvinist. Charles Stanley, Ron Rhodes, David Jeremiah, etc..
No I do not. You are confused but you are not lost. One of these days Paul Washer needs to show up at your church and teach you and your congregation some things you have failed to do as a pastor.
Plenty of Godly men are not Calvinist. Charles Stanley, Ron Rhodes, David Jeremiah, etc..
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He would relieve a bulletin and be asked to sit down like everyone else. What he has to teach, I am well aware of and don't want infecting my church.
Wait what? You have no idea what I do as a pastor. Me thinks someone is bitter.
PreachTony
Active Member
Why would you want Paul Washer to show up? The man is a hardened Lordship Salvation Calvinist who, essentially, teaches salvation as a by-product of works. He has called an experience of grace a "silly profession" and he calls preachers who disagree with him "stupid evangelists." Yeah, that's the kind of man I would want to put in the pulpit. [/sarcasm]
But, I guess if most of your scriptural instruction comes from Ray Comfort and Way of the Master instead of from the scripture itself, you might buy into Washer's nonsense.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
When my children were at home I did not allow the use of the pejorative "stupid". I hesitate to break my own "decree" so I will just say that anyone who believes that nonsense does not understand the Grace of God.
When God saved me at the tender age of 34 I am not sure I knew what Arminian doctrine was. Being raised among a large family of Old Regular Baptists I have always believed that Salvation is a supernatural transaction, being born again, between God and man. However, at one time I believed that man had a part in initiating that New Birth. I was saved then and since I have come to believe in the Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace I am still saved.
Incidentally, most of the Baptists in this piney neck of the woods where I live are one point Calvinists, Security of the Believer! Many, if not most, are Rapture Ready!
Washers and comforts books are LOADED I say LOADED with scripture. You need to read one for. Change.
Read
The Way of the Master
The gospel power and message by Washer
No one NEEDS to read anything but the Scripture. A book loaded with Scripture will never be the same as Scripture itself.
Scripture > any other book no matter how many verses are quoted.
PreachTony
Active Member
It doesn't matter how loaded with scripture his book is. Satan can quote more scripture than you, me, and Paul Washer combined, and he can twist it far worse than we can. Washer has already twisted it badly enough.
It seems as though you are not willing to hold to sola scriptura. The scriptures and the gospel preached from the scriptures are sufficient to the saving of the world. Nothing Paul Washer writes will add one jot or tittle to the holy and inspired Word of God.
However, what Paul Washer writes can lead countless people into false salvation and despair, as he claims that we must keep up works after salvation in order to prove our salvation. Any experience of grace, something I'm sure most members of BB can point back to in their lives, is discounted by Washer as a silly profession, as he would rather people work their way into salvation rather than rely on the shed blood of Jesus and the grace of God that comes to us by faith.
As far as I'm concerned, Paul Washer ranks right up there with any other false teacher you want to trot out in front of us.
The quote in the OP is nonsense. Many godly men have not been reformed. Some reformed folks can't deal with that for whatever reason. At the same time there is just as much vitriol from the other side, by some on this board even, that Calvinism is another gospel. Both sides need to chill.
I can't understand this. Washer is one of the top 3 guys that I listen to regularly. Never in all that I've listened to have I heard anything like what I bolded above in your statement.
I'm guessing that you may have only listened to part of a sermon and have not listened to the rest of the man's preaching. He is quite balanced and biblical. Unfortunately his "harsh" preaching gets much more publicity for good and bad reasons.
I can't understand this. Washer is one of the top 3 guys that I listen to regularly. Never in all that I've listened to have I heard anything like what I bolded above in your statement.
I'm guessing that you may have only listened to part of a sermon and have not listened to the rest of the man's preaching. He is quite balanced and biblical. Unfortunately his "harsh" preaching gets much more publicity for good and bad reasons.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I know nothing about Washer and do not care to know anything. However I believe the following Scripture address your comment above.
Ephesians 2:10
10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Matthew 16:17-20
16. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
PreachTony
Active Member
RLB - I've listened to several Washer sermons. He is balanced in his own beliefs. However, I'm just not comfortable with a man so nonchalantly dismissing anyone's experience of grace. Paul (the Apostle; not Washer) laid out a pretty clear map of salvation in Romans, and Washer has gone against that map. He has labeled using the Romans method as "gospel reductionism" and called preachers who use that method "stupid evangelists." That's on record, and the particular sermon that came from really soured me on Washer.
Believe it or not, there was a time I actually liked listening to Washer, especially in the sermons where he blasts the prosperity gospel. But once I got into his sermons that so heavily stressed Lordship Salvation, in text if not by name, then I fell out with him. That's just my experience. If you want to listen to him, go for it. I just don't like Evan's insinuation that Washer needs to come to anyone's church to straighten them out on how to properly preach the gospel.
OR - I believe works are a product of our salvation. That said, I would never call into question someone else's salvation simply because I didn't think I was seeing enough works from them. Salvation is between you and the Lord. I don't get to pass judgment on the state of your soul just because your works don't fit my requirements.