If you don't know why then how do you know its unconditional?

[Skandelon]

When you ask a Calvinist why God might choose to save one over another, they will tell you that we don't know, yet somehow they know the choice was unconditional? How is that?

Just because you don't know the condition doesn't necessitate that one doesn't exist, does it?

 

[Iconoclast]

When you ask a Calvinist why God might choose to save one over another, they will tell you that we don't know, yet somehow they know the choice was unconditional? How is that?

Just because you don't know the condition doesn't necessitate that one doesn't exist, does it?

The answer is found right here:

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;\\\


Election is a Covenant transaction between the persons of the Trinity before the world was, and revealed progressively to His church throughout the times of biblical revelation.

We believe it,and do not look for , or speculate on some motive, that would question God's Holy wisdom or knowledge:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[DocTrinsoGrace]

Secrets of Dealing with Calvinists

When you ask a Calvinist why God might choose to save one over another, they will tell you that we don't know, yet somehow they know the choice was unconditional? How is that?

Just because you don't know the condition doesn't necessitate that one doesn't exist, does it?

I will give you the secrets to dealing effectively with Calvinists:

1. Don't put words into other people's mouths. Doing that cause them to immediately write off anything that you might help them to understand.

2. Do make every effort to express their opinion in a way that will cause them to say, "That's it! That is precisely what I believe!" That will always be a wonderful starting point.

3. Don't use convoluted logic, with lots of negatives, etc. Being skilled rhetorically will increase the attentiveness of your hearers.

4. Do use specific scriptural citations to support each of your assertions. Rhetoric alone is not our sure foundation, but rather the Word of God. Be prepared, though, to be a good exegete.

5. Do not cite as your signature, a person who would generally disagree with your position. This will, sadly, put your post into a humorous light, rather than a persuasive one.

6. Do love the Lord, and seek to approach every encounter in the way that He has done. That will mean honoring and loving the truth, the Word, and His redeemed.

7. Do have a good attitude. Join us in loving the truth more than loving a position.

8. Do prepare yourself to instruct. This fits with the other items above, but it is of such singular importance -- in the light of your post -- that I thought it deserved its own point.

God bless you in our continuing struggle to rightly understand all that God has revealed to us!

In Him, Doc

PS I apologize for not taking the time to cite all the Scriptures that articulate the above. I am bushed tonight. Nonetheless, I suspect that you are well enough versed in the Bible to render those up yourself.

 

[InTheLight]

I will give you the secrets to dealing effectively with Calvinists:

Would prefer you address the topic/question instead.

 

[InTheLight]

Election is a Covenant transaction between the persons of the Trinity before the world was, and revealed progressively to His church throughout the times of biblical revelation.

So why did you quote verses pertaining to Israel?

 

[annsni]

What condition do we see in the Scriptures?

 

[Revmitchell]

I will give you the secrets to dealing effectively with Calvinists:

1. Don't put words into other people's mouths. Doing that cause them to immediately write off anything that you might help them to understand.

2. Do make every effort to express their opinion in a way that will cause them to say, "That's it! That is precisely what I believe!" That will always be a wonderful starting point.

3. Don't use convoluted logic, with lots of negatives, etc. Being skilled rhetorically will increase the attentiveness of your hearers.

4. Do use specific scriptural citations to support each of your assertions. Rhetoric alone is not our sure foundation, but rather the Word of God. Be prepared, though, to be a good exegete.

5. Do not cite as your signature, a person who would generally disagree with your position. This will, sadly, put your post into a humorous light, rather than a persuasive one.

6. Do love the Lord, and seek to approach every encounter in the way that He has done. That will mean honoring and loving the truth, the Word, and His redeemed.

7. Do have a good attitude. Join us in loving the truth more than loving a position.

8. Do prepare yourself to instruct. This fits with the other items above, but it is of such singular importance -- in the light of your post -- that I thought it deserved its own point.

I would say that on this board Calvinists could use these more than anyone.

 

[Winman]

I will give you the secrets to dealing effectively with Calvinists:

Skandelon was a Calvinist himself for many years. You will find he understands Calvinism quite well.

 

[Winman]

So why did you quote verses pertaining to Israel?

Not only that, but the verses he showed do not support Unconditional Election, but conditional. God said he chose Israel because he would keep the oath which he swore to their fathers. That is a condition. Further, God said he keeps covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments. That is conditional as well.

8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

 

[DocTrinsoGrace]

Skandelon was a Calvinist himself for many years. You will find he understands Calvinism quite well.

I see. I did not presume on Skandelon's theological training one way or another; nor did I intend to speculate about his past or presuppositions. I could not do so without knowing him. All we have is text. As our Lord Jesus asserted so succinctly, "Wisdom is vindicated by all her children."

I have often thought about Christ's warning that "every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the judgment day." If that is true of my careless word, what then of my considered word? Consequently, I try to encourage those around me to use language in as God honoring a fashion as possible, explicitly and implicitly. I know my own efforts in that regard often fall woefully short.

Please forgive me if there were any implications in what I wrote that seemed to lack grace to the hearer. They were unintended. Your tolerance is appreciated.

Goodness, I'm wrung out tonight. I think I'll head off to bed. Good night.

 

[DocTrinsoGrace]

I would say that on this board Calvinists could use these more than anyone.

That's encouraging, pastor. I hope that we can each set a good example one for another. What a precious offering that would be to our Lord!

 

[Aaron]

You will find he understands Calvinism quite well.

If he did, he'd be one still.

 

[Iconoclast]

So why did you quote verses pertaining to Israel?

Hello ITL,
I use all scripture when I post... 2tim 3:16. Israel contained many who were among the elect of God.Not all israel was of Israel...but the passage in Deut 7 gives much clarity in God's own words as to why he saved those that he did.He is not a respector of persons...but in Infinite wisdom and love He has purposed to save a multitude in His eternally designed Covenant which is now fully manifest or made known to the Church.

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

ITL--- Jesus is the true Israel....isa 49:1-8...and US IN HIM:thumbs:

Take him at His word.The dispensational framework does not handle this well, but puts up a false division that eph 2 says that the cross has broken down.....The CHURCH...The Eternal bride , is made up of ONE people.

Sinners covered by the blood....this includes;

Saints before Israel was a nation.
Saints from among the nation of Israel
Saints from among the gentiles, after the nation of Israel lost it's special status....mt 21:43....
Saints who are yet to be saved, both jew and gentile.....God is able to graft them in again.....

after this manner...all israel will be saved.

So it is okay to use all 66 books of scripture to investigate the truth of God.

What do you think ITL..???

 

[Iconoclast]

Skandelon was a Calvinist himself for many years. You will find he understands Calvinism quite well.

:laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

I will give you the secrets to dealing effectively with Calvinists:

1. Don't put words into other people's mouths. Doing that cause them to immediately write off anything that you might help them to understand.

2. Do make every effort to express their opinion in a way that will cause them to say, "That's it! That is precisely what I believe!" That will always be a wonderful starting point.

3. Don't use convoluted logic, with lots of negatives, etc. Being skilled rhetorically will increase the attentiveness of your hearers.

4. Do use specific scriptural citations to support each of your assertions. Rhetoric alone is not our sure foundation, but rather the Word of God. Be prepared, though, to be a good exegete.

5. Do not cite as your signature, a person who would generally disagree with your position. This will, sadly, put your post into a humorous light, rather than a persuasive one.

6. Do love the Lord, and seek to approach every encounter in the way that He has done. That will mean honoring and loving the truth, the Word, and His redeemed.

7. Do have a good attitude. Join us in loving the truth more than loving a position.

8. Do prepare yourself to instruct. This fits with the other items above, but it is of such singular importance -- in the light of your post -- that I thought it deserved its own point.

God bless you in our continuing struggle to rightly understand all that God has revealed to us!

In Him, Doc

PS I apologize for not taking the time to cite all the Scriptures that articulate the above. I am bushed tonight. Nonetheless, I suspect that you are well enough versed in the Bible to render those up yourself.

Thank you for this very fine post:thumbs::wavey: All Christians should follow this and seek to edify one another.:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Not only that, but the verses he showed do not support Unconditional Election, but conditional. God said he chose Israel because he would keep the oath which he swore to their fathers. That is a condition. Further, God said he keeps covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments. That is conditional as well.

8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

A correct understanding of the verses...even a correct reading will lead to a different conclusion.
:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Herald]

There is an abundance of biblical evidence to support unconditional election. There is equal evidence to support the contention that God did not elect based on any merit on the part of the one elected.

Eph. 1:4 reveals that God chose His elect before the foundation of the world. Rom. 9:22-23 expands on this, "What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so that make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory." Nowhere does it teach that God chose based upon any future action of man. Indeed, Rom. 5:6 tell us, "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly." Paul restates this two verses later in Rom. 5:8, "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Peter approaches this from a different angle in 1 Peter 2:9, "For you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR GOD'S OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light." Ungodly, sinners, darkness; there is nothing in man that merits salvation.

 

[preacher4truth]

Thank you for this very fine post:thumbs::wavey: All Christians should follow this and seek to edify one another.:thumbs:

Agreed, that was a great post indeed.

As to the OP, there is yet again that futile searching to find that somehow, someway it had to be for something good in man that God made a choice.

I must ask why a person would seek for something within himself as the reason for election?

Such wresting of truth is contrary to Scripture, contrary to calling, foreknowledge, His purpose &c as it is and always has been unconditional. It is also a not so subtle rejection of revealed truth of unconditional election and the Sovereign purpose of God.

The end result of conditional election is man finding and seeking for reason to boast before God which is against 1 Cor. 1:26ff and against the balance of Gods revelation. The end result of the flawed OP is man boasting in the presence of God and seeking for a reason to do so.

Would to God for an OP that would rather glory in God for choosing wretched man that is undeserving, and due to nothing in himself which defines what grace truly is instead of this incessant seeking for something good in man as the reason, which is at odds with the Biblical doctrines of grace and mercy.

 

[Iconoclast]

Agreed, that was a great post indeed.

As to the OP, there is yet again that futile searching to find that somehow, someway it had to be for something good in man that God made a choice.

I must ask why a person would seek for something within himself as the reason for election?

Such wresting of truth is contrary to Scripture, contrary to calling, foreknowledge, His purpose &c as it is and always has been unconditional. It is also a not so subtle rejection of revealed truth of unconditional election and the Sovereign purpose of God.

The end result of conditional election is man finding and seeking for reason to boast before God which is against 1 Cor. 1:26ff and against the balance of Gods revelation. The end result of the flawed OP is man boasting in the presence of God and seeking for a reason to do so.

Would to God for an OP that would rather glory in God for choosing wretched man that is undeserving, and due to nothing in himself which defines what grace truly is instead of this incessant seeking for something good in man as the reason, which is at odds with the Biblical doctrines of grace and mercy.

It is strange that many struggle with this as much as they do.Isaiah when he saw Jesus in Heaven realized his condition before God:

5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.


Peter did say this of paul's writings however;
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


from the struggle many have...it would seem that this was in view, perhaps also the grace and duty to be spiritually minded, mortifying sin,etc...can also be a struggle.

No one minds sincere questions and objections or inquiry.Most of the friction here comes when some attack God, His word , or His Holy motives.

Just think back through the threads that get the most heated,and this seems to be the root cause.....a wrong view of man and the effects of the fall on our minds and hearts. Any question that suggests in any way something wrong or lacking in God's holy wisdom is to be treated as a theological third rail.:thumbsup::wavey:

 

[Skandelon]

What condition do we see in the Scriptures?

He elects to unconditionally send his appeal to all mankind, so in that since election is unconditional. The invitation to attend the wedding banquet is unconditionally sent to all.

He chooses to save (allow entrance) to those dressed in the proper attire (righteousness through faith).

Repent and you shall be forgiven (that is a condition).
Humble yourself and you shall be exalted. (that is a condition)
Believe and you shall be saved. (that is a condition)