If you don't know why then how do you know its unconditional?

[preacher4truth]

Sorry to interrupt, seeking clarification of “Calvinist” belief.

How about Biblical belief, or Reformed?

I thought that Calvinists held unconditional election to be election not conditioned on anything in man.

The reformed do believe the above. Nothing here is contrary to this teaching.

I didn’t realize that they held election and salvation to be one in the same (I, perhaps erroneously, thought that they believed one has to repent and believe – a condition of salvation – but that this was met by grace rather than human ability).

The saved are called elect over and again in the NT, therefore the Scripture calls them one in the same and from there is where the teaching stems, not from theology, but from Scripture. So again they are one in the same. Repentance is gifted by God as well, and all is by grace -- nothing by human ability. Thus salvation is all of God, not part God and part man.

 

[preacher4truth]

When something is unconditional the purpose is to get people to come just as they are, not to tell people they can't come.

Jesus taught that no one can come unless granted by the Father. All those who are His will come. That leaves another out of the picture. No one here is preaching what yo are implying though.

We are to encourage others to believe period this is what the scripture tells us.

Preach the Gospel, His will be saved.

If they don't believe in Christ they are not saved.

Don't be so deep! :tongue3:

If they don't come they are on their own, because there is no condition for them to be saved just come as you are.

They can't come on their own. Any who do come have no other way to come to God.

Is is a shame how some deal with this, but all scripture points us to Jesus and we should be doing the same.

A sweeping generalization not based on any fact. No one is doing any different except perhaps in your own mind.

I have no problem with unconditioned election, it is the truth. I just don't agree how some use it.

Again, a sweeping accusation with no facts to back it up. Pure conjecture on your part.

 

[Winman]

Scripture is clear, election to salvation is unconditional. Furthermore, not MANY are noble &c, it doesn't say ANY. It is all according to His purpose, not because of the condition of man.

That is not what scriptures says at all. We are chosen "through" belief of the truth.

2 The 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

This verse is not difficult, it says God has chosen us from the beginning to salvation "through" two conditions. The first condition is sanctification of the Spirit. This is God's part. The second condition is "belief of the truth", this is our part. Unless a man believes the gospel, he will not be saved. God has chosen those who believe his truth.

 

[psalms109:31]

Jesus taught that no one can come unless granted by the Father. All those who are His will come. That leaves another out of the picture. No one here is preaching what yo are implying though.



Preach the Gospel, His will be saved.



Don't be so deep! :tongue3:



They can't come on their own. Any who do come have no other way to come to God.



A sweeping generalization not based on any fact. No one is doing any different except perhaps in your own mind.



Again, a sweeping accusation with no facts to back it up. Pure conjecture on your part.

Simple truth. They will never come unconditioned until they listen and learn these are the people who will come to Jesus.

John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

John 10:30
I and the Father are one.”

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

I don't like generalizing who the Father has given to His Son when the truth is in the chapter those who listen and learn come and they come just as they are ever hearing never understanding always seeing but never perceiving and Jesus will do the work to save them. They come without any condition just as they are.

I don't agree with how some use the scripture and unconditioned election.

 

[JonC]

How about Biblical belief, or Reformed?
The reformed do believe the above. Nothing here is contrary to this teaching.

The saved are called elect over and again in the NT, therefore the Scripture calls them one in the same and from there is where the teaching stems, not from theology, but from Scripture. So again they are one in the same. Repentance is gifted by God as well, and all is by grace -- nothing by human ability. Thus salvation is all of God, not part God and part man.

OK…. I didn’t mean to exclude anyone…In the future I’ll just rephrase it the “unconditional election” folk.. (if I remember).

What I wanted clarification on was the unconditional election folk’s understanding of unconditional. Does it mean that there was absolutely no condition, or that there may have but it was not on some quality of man. Do the unconditional election folk allow the possibility that God elected for a reason but that "condition" was met in the will of God rather in man – or was it arbitrary on the part of God? OR is election alluding to some being created for specific purposes, some as vessels of wrath and some to show God’s mercy?

I don’t mean calling the saved the elect – that is, IMHO, obvious from Scripture. I’m asking about election and salvation. Scripture seems to indicate that God elects, and those He elects he saves…but does this mean election and salvation is one in the same (if so, wouldn’t it mean justification and sanctification are one in the same)?

 

[Winman]

You must believe in Jesus to be one of the chosen;

Jhn 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Just before Jesus was crucifed, he told his disciples he would be "lifted up from the earth". He would be crucifed and taken away from them.

Nevertheless, while he was still here his told his disciples to "believe in the light" speaking of himself, "that ye may be the children of light".

There you go, that is how you become one of the "children of light", by believing the light, that is, Jesus Christ.

 

[preacher4truth]

Simple truth. They will never come unconditioned until they listen and learn these are the people who will come to Jesus.

John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

John 10:30
I and the Father are one.”

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

I don't like generalizing who the Father has given to His Son when the truth is in the chapter those who listen and learn come and they come just as they are ever hearing never understanding always seeing but never perceiving and He will do the work to save them. They come without any condition just as they are.

I don't agree with how some use the scripture and unconditioned election.

None of the Scriptures you've used prove your cloudy point nor justify your accusations.

You don't like 'generalizing?' who the Father has given the Son? Well you've already done so. Too late. :wavey:

But, so did Jesus, so let us stick to His Words, not your generalizations:

Only those given will come - Jn. 6:37. Jn 6:40 is qualified by 6:37

They can only come if drawn by the Father -- Jn. 6:44

It must be granted by the Father for them to come -- Jn. 6:65

While your straightening out your theology with these texts, also go into Matthew 11:29, and go up a few verses (11:25) and see that those who come have had the Son revealed to them by HIS CHOICE (11:27), and not all are included as you imply by taking a verse out of context (11:29).

I don't agree with how some use the scripture and unconditioned election.

You're repeating yourself and have no evidence for your accusation.

As stated, here is what I said contrary to your accusations of misusing 'unconditional' election (or that you've used it on others generally) something you have no proof for except in your own mind. Offer up proof when accusing or broad brushing.

At this time you have no proof, so I understand all you can do is repeat your generalized accusations without offering anything to back it up because there is no evidence for it.

But here it is one more time: We preach the Gospel, God saves His people.

 

[preacher4truth]

I don’t mean calling the saved the elect – that is, IMHO, obvious from Scripture. I’m asking about election and salvation. Scripture seems to indicate that God elects, and those He elects he saves…but does this mean election and salvation is one in the same (if so, wouldn’t it mean justification and sanctification are one in the same)?

The Scriptures call the saved the elect. Check out the NT epistles and you will see this fact.

 

[psalms109:31]

None of the Scriptures you've used prove your cloudy point nor justify your accusations.

You don't like 'generalizing?' who the Father has given the Son? Well you've already done so. Too late. :wavey:

But, so did Jesus, so let us stick to His Words, not your generalizations:

Only those given will come - Jn. 6:37. Jn 6:40 is qualified by 6:37

They can only come if drawn by the Father -- Jn. 6:44

It must be granted by the Father for them to come -- Jn. 6:65

While your straightening out your theology with these texts, also go into Matthew 11:29, and go up a few verses (11:25) and see that those who come have had the Son revealed to them by HIS CHOICE (11:27), and not all are included as you imply by taking a verse out of context (11:29).



You're repeating yourself and have no evidence for your accusation.

As stated, here is what I said contrary to your accusations of misusing 'unconditional' election (or that you've used it on others generally) something you have no proof for except in your own mind. Offer up proof when accusing or broad brushing.

At this time you have no proof, so I understand all you can do is repeat your generalized accusations without offering anything to back it up because there is no evidence for it.

But here it is one more time: We preach the Gospel, God saves His people.

Like I already said and the scripture clarifies who the all is those who listen and learn and come unconditioned just the way they are. It isn't complicated no one will come unless they listen and learn so God bless the feet who bring the good news.

I really don't like how some use scripture and unconditional election.

Romans 10:
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

The Offer of Life or Death

Deuteronomy 30:
11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

If they have not listened and learned they will not be drawn, given, granted, or come period. They come unconditional just they way they are.

John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

 

[preacher4truth]

I really don't like how some use scripture and conditional election.

So you're repeating yourself again. With no example. Congrats. :applause:

You have no argument, no evidence and nothing you are saying is rebutting anything anyone else has said. You've erected a straw man argument yet again. For the record, your taking Scripture out of context as you do does not rebut truth. Learn to know context and get acquainted with truth. :thumbsup:

Additionally, exactly who in Matthew 11:25-29 did Jesus qualify His offer? Answer: Those to whom He CHOOSES to reveal Himself unto, then He calls them, 11:29.

BTW, you said 'conditional' this time instead of 'unconditional'. :laugh:

 

[Herald]

What I wanted clarification on was the unconditional election folk’s understanding of unconditional. Does it mean that there was absolutely no condition, or that there may have but it was not on some quality of man.

Jon,

Unconditional election describes "God's electing some solely on the basis of God's freedom and love and not on the basis of any merit or efforts on the part of humans" (McKim). In other words God's electing has no human condition placed on it. This is in opposition to the modern Arminian view of God electing those whom He foresaw would choose Him.

Do the unconditional election folk allow the possibility that God elected for a reason but that "condition" was met in the will of God rather in man – or was it arbitrary on the part of God?

God is not capricious. He does not act on a whim. He is not arbitrary. God's election is according to His own counsel and for His own purposes.

OR is election alluding to some being created for specific purposes, some as vessels of wrath and some to show God’s mercy?

You are close to the mark on this. God elects, and then saves, for a purpose. Eph. 2:10 tells us that God created His elect ("us" according to the text) for good works. So, one specific purpose for God electing some is so that they will perform good works.

I think one of the chief reasons God elects and saves is "to the praise of the glory of His grace" (Eph. 1:6). In other words, for God's good pleasure (Phil. 2:13).

I don’t mean calling the saved the elect – that is, IMHO, obvious from Scripture. I’m asking about election and salvation. Scripture seems to indicate that God elects, and those He elects he saves…but does this mean election and salvation is one in the same (if so, wouldn’t it mean justification and sanctification are one in the same)?

Election is God choosing some to enjoy the benefits of salvation, but it is not the same as salvation. The President does not become President on election day. He becomes President after he takes the oath of office. Similarly the fact that God elected (chose) His sheep from eternity past does not mean they were saved in eternity past. Justification (being declared just or righteous) takes place at a moment in time. Sanctification has two components. First, we are sanctified at the moment of justification in the sense that we are set apart for God's purpose, but sanctification cannot be confused with being declared just. Second, we progressively become more like Christ as we continue in the Christian life. This is called progressive sanctification. It is different than positional sanctification (being set apart by God for a purpose).

 

[psalms109:31]

So you're repeating yourself again. With no example. Congrats. :applause:

You have no argument, no evidence and nothing you are saying is rebutting anything anyone else has said. You've erected a straw man argument yet again. For the record, your taking Scripture out of context as you do does not rebut truth. Learn to know context and get acquainted with truth. :thumbsup:

Additionally, exactly who in Matthew 11:25-29 did Jesus qualify His offer? Answer: Those to whom He CHOOSES to reveal Himself unto, then He calls them, 11:29.

BTW, you said 'conditional' this time instead of 'unconditional'. :laugh:

You are not listening who does He choose to reveal Himself, those who listen and learn those who don't will not be granted, given, revealed, drawn, because without His word they can't do anything. So God bless the feet who bring the good news.

They come unconditional just the way they are dead in sin and that is how unconditional election should be used.

Psalm 119:105
[ נ Nun ] Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path.

John 6:53
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

 

[JonC]

The Scriptures call the saved the elect. Check out the NT epistles and you will see this fact.

Yes. I said this seems obvious to me.

 

[JonC]

You are close to the mark on this. God elects, and then saves, for a purpose. Eph. 2:10 tells us that God created His elect ("us" according to the text) for good works. So, one specific purpose for God electing some is so that they will perform good works.

Thanks Herald, for addressing my question. If I understand correctly, then election is closely related (if not identical?) to being created for a specific purpose. For some reason I had thought of electing in terms of choosing from a population some and not others - but in this context it has a different meaning (at least for me).

 

[Herald]

For some reason I had thought of electing in terms of choosing from a population some and not others...

You are not wrong. Obviously if God elects some to salvation then there will be others who are not elected to salvation. This gets into the difference between infra and supralapsarianism in the Calvinist system. But that is a whole other discussion.

 

[Skandelon]

This is in opposition to the modern Arminian view of God electing those whom He foresaw would choose Him.

You do know that I, and most 'modern' baptist non-Calvinists do not hold to this approach, right?

 

[Iconoclast]

Many of us agree with this wise statement:
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )

 

[Winman]

OR is election alluding to some being created for specific purposes, some as vessels of wrath and some to show God’s mercy?

Calvinists love to speak of "the potter" in Romans 9 and say God can make a person whatever he chooses.

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

The problem with this interpretation is that it is not what Paul is saying at all. Paul is making reference to Jeremiah 18. Here is the original story of the "potter", and as you will see, it is not teaching Unconditional Election whatsoever, in fact, it is teaching the very opposite.

Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

Here, God told Jeremiah to go down and observe a potter at work. He saw that if a piece of pottery was defective, then the potter could crush it and start over, or he could reshape it into an inferior work. And then God said he could do the same as this potter.

But was it unconditional? Hardly. God said that if he had spoken to pluck up, and destroy a nation, if that nation repents of their sin, then he would repent of the evil he intended toward them.

Likewise, if he has spoken of a nation to build it up and do good to it, if that nation turn from him and do evil, he would repent of the good he had intended toward them.

THIS is what Paul is making reference to in Romans 9. He is explaining to the Jews why God has rejected them and is now taking the gospel to the Gentiles. There is nothing unconditional about it, he is rejecting the Jews because they did not seek righteousness by faith, but by the works of the law. He is now accepting the Gentiles because they have sought righteousness the correct way, through faith. Paul summarizes this at the end of the chapter.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Romans 9 is not teaching Unconditional Election whatsoever, in fact, it is teaching the very opposite.

And no potter in his right mind would make pottery just to destroy it. That would be a waste of time and money.

 

[DocTrinsoGrace]

You are not listening

In my humble opinion, the roots of this thread are problematic, and its supporters have yet to render something better than than those roots. All we have is text... and "Wisdom is vindicated by all her children."

This statement of yours about listening gets us right down to the wellspring of the issue. Even if one manages to employ correct exegesis, flawless logic, lucid explanation, careful exposition, loving entreaty, and perfect pedagogy -- will that really make hearers? There is a reason that people will not listen (John 8:43). If they will hear, indeed, we would not want it to be because we persuaded them. We certainly don't want them to be students of our own design. We want their hearing to be the genuine article, a work of God Himself, to their eternal good, and to His great and eternal glory! What a wonderful thing that God has been pleased to providentially give us specific people for whom to pray!

 

[Herald]

Even if one manages to employ correct exegesis, flawless logic, lucid explanation, careful exposition, loving entreaty, and perfect pedagogy -- will that really make hearers?

You have addressed the most prolific problem on the Baptist Board when it comes to discussing any aspect of the Doctrines of Grace. There is no genuine desire to hear on the part of our opponents. This is why I believe that it is as much an act of grace to correct erroneous doctrine as it is for a sinner to be converted.