If you don't know why then how do you know its unconditional?

[psalms109:31]

In my humble opinion, the roots of this thread are problematic, and its supporters have yet to render something better than than those roots. All we have is text... and "Wisdom is vindicated by all her children."

This statement of yours about listening gets us right down to the wellspring of the issue. Even if one manages to employ correct exegesis, flawless logic, lucid explanation, careful exposition, loving entreaty, and perfect pedagogy -- will that really make hearers? There is a reason that people will not listen (John 8:43). If they will hear, indeed, we would not want it to be because we persuaded them. We certainly don't want them to be students of our own design. We want their hearing to be the genuine article, a work of God Himself, to their eternal good, and to His great and eternal glory! What a wonderful thing that God has been pleased to providentially give us specific people for whom to pray!

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

Proverbs 3:
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.[Or will direct your paths]
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the Lord and shun evil.

2 Corinthians 4

4 Therefore, since through God’s mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.

Luke 11:
47 “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’ 50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

52 “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.

1 Thessalonians 2:
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[ Or them fully]


2 Corinthians 3:
12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.


God has hidden the truth from them because not only they are wise in their own eyes and will not listen and learn, but for their murdering ways. They are his the devil because of the devil is the murderer from the beginning.

There is still hope for them by turning away from themselves the god of this age to the one true God Jesus Christ.

They need to turn with no condition just the way they are and Jesus will save them.

Psalm 82

82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.



There is many like these scriptures that are 1600 for-fathers have not considered in their incomplete work.

 

[JonC]

You are not wrong. Obviously if God elects some to salvation then there will be others who are not elected to salvation. This gets into the difference between infra and supralapsarianism in the Calvinist system. But that is a whole other discussion.

It’s been a long time since I’ve actually studied these views. Thank you for reminding me. I may be mistaken, but it seems that one’s view of the logical order of God’s decrees would influence how one understands the topic of this thread (although it is another topic for another discussion).

 

[Winman]

You have addressed the most prolific problem on the Baptist Board when it comes to discussing any aspect of the Doctrines of Grace. There is no genuine desire to hear on the part of our opponents. This is why I believe that it is as much an act of grace to correct erroneous doctrine as it is for a sinner to be converted.

What a bunch of baloney, we could say the exact same thing of you.

The difference is that we show scripture that supports our view, Calvinists usually do not, they simply assert they are correct.

And flowery speech proves nothing. That in itself is a false form of argument that only deceives the simple minded.

 

[preacher4truth]

Yes. I said this seems obvious to me.

I see what you are asking now. Since all the elect are not aware of their election until salvation, and, knowing that all the elect will be saved these are in potentiality one and the same. Yes, the Scriptures call the elect saved within NT epistles. Note 2 Timothy 2:8ff for Paul's attitude in evangelism for their sake. No hyper cal there (nor here).

 

[preacher4truth]

Winman is incorrect in his assertion that Reformed use Scripture less.

It is a fact that the Reformed use Scripture much more often in the real world and on BB, and also rightly handle the Word as well.

That said we could all use it more.

 

[Herald]

...it seems that one’s view of the logical order of God’s decrees would influence how one understands the topic of this thread (although it is another topic for another discussion).

I believe the logical order of God's decree is a topic designed for human consumption as opposed to something that actually took place at a point in time (or temporal process) where God actually issued decrees. We know that God is all-sufficient. He does not acquire knowledge since He is all knowledge. He is completely omniscient. God created all there is. As the Alpha and Omega he is not bound by human limitations or the laws of time and space that He created. He transcends them. I have a difficult time believing that there was a temporal process when God actually formed a decree. The rub is that God's decrees have always existed. That is the safeguard that keeps me from joining our Arminian friends.

In the eternal mind of God He has numbered the sum total of His elect. 2 Timothy 2:19 states, "Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His"". It flies in the face of logic to suggest that God does not know those who are not His. The 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith articulates it this way, "These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished" (1689 LBC, 3.4).

Thankfully, God withholds from us what rightfully belongs to Him alone; the knowledge of who are His elect.

 

[Skandelon]

You have addressed the most prolific problem on the Baptist Board when it comes to discussing any aspect of the Doctrines of Grace. There is no genuine desire to hear on the part of our opponents. This is why I believe that it is as much an act of grace to correct erroneous doctrine as it is for a sinner to be converted.

I imagine both sides feel the same about the other, which is why comments like this aren't helpful. You have no idea what other's desires are on this forum, just as we don't know yours.

And if you believe what you said, that it is just as much an act of grace to correct erroneous doctrine as it is for a sinner to be converted, then why don't you suppose God converts all his children to the same uniform soteriology? I mean, if your view is accurate, he had no qualms with irresistibly making us desire to believe in him for salvation, why not go all the way and make us all believe the same doctrine?

I see only a few options:

1. You're as wrong about God's work in bringing people to salvation as you are about God's work in bringing people to correct doctrine, because He has actually chosen to allow people free responsibility (ability to respond) which accounts for the diversity in beliefs even among Christians.

2. You're right about salvation in that God does irresistibly cause some to believe in Christ, but for whatever reason he decides to allow for free will and responsibility when it comes to choosing correct doctrine.

3. You're right that God ultimately determines everyone's willingness to convert and their doctrinal views. Which leaves you with the question as to why God would bring some of his children to understand truth and not others. And it also should make you wonder why you even bother debating with us when it was God's determination for us to be non-Calvinistic. You are just debating God, because apparently HE is the one who has to decide for us what we will accept or reject, right?

Which is it? raying:

 

[Skandelon]

I believe the logical order of God's decree is a topic designed for human consumption as opposed to something that actually took place at a point in time (or temporal process) where God actually issued decrees. We know that God is all-sufficient. He does not acquire knowledge since He is all knowledge. He is completely omniscient. God created all there is. As the Alpha and Omega he is not bound by human limitations or the laws of time and space that He created. He transcends them. I have a difficult time believing that there was a temporal process when God actually formed a decree. The rub is that God's decrees have always existed. That is the safeguard that keeps me from joining our Arminian friends.

In the eternal mind of God He has numbered the sum total of His elect.

He never actually numbered them, because to number them means that at some point they weren't numbered, right? You meant to say, "In the eternal mind God their has always been the total number of his elect."

He never actually chose them, they just were? Right? Even if scripture says that God made a choice, He really never made a choice, I mean how could he choose something He already knew before choosing it, right?

So, the elect have eternally existing in the mind of God and thus they are as much apart of His eternal nature as anything else. He is not really transcendent or separate from them because there has never been any distinction from his nature and these people. Creation itself HAD to happen because it was eternally apart of God's nature, not a mere choice that he made. He had to create. His nature dictated that He create. He couldn't have existing without creating. God and creation are one and eternally existent? Right?

Are you seeing the problem with this view? Appealing to mystery and the biblical revelation seems to work better in my experience. God made a choice, but I don't understand that because His ways are higher than mine, and be ok with that.

 

[DocTrinsoGrace]

There is no genuine desire to hear on the part of our opponents. This is why I believe that it is as much an act of grace to correct erroneous doctrine as it is for a sinner to be converted.

This should not discourage us. We are saddened for them, sense personally this important battle for the Truth, and feel wounded for our Lord as He is impugned, nevertheless His eternal purpose is being worked out to a glorious consummation. I recall someone saying once that our Christian hope, is not wishful thinking. It is a confident expectation.

You are also right about the doctrine. As I have written elsewhere, doctrine always divides. It should not surprise us. It divides sheep and goats, wheat and tares, the righteous from the lawless, the good tree from the corrupt tree, the fruitful abiding branches from branches that are removed.

Therefore, be encouraged! We all are praying for you!

 

[Herald]

This should not discourage us. We are saddened for them, sense personally this important battle for the Truth, and feel wounded for our Lord as He is impugned, nevertheless His eternal purpose is being worked out to a glorious consummation.

A good reminder. Thank you, brother.

The circles I travel in off line are in general agreement, theologically speaking. I have to remind myself that the BB is an eclectic mix. In the end it is not "my" truth that I contend for, it is God's truth. All of us need to be careful not to exceed the clear teaching of scripture or to allow personal feelings towards a poster to draw us away from glorifying God. The latter has reminded me that there is still work to be done on my level of sanctification!

Soli Deo Gloria!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

A good reminder. Thank you, brother.

The circles I travel in off line are in general agreement, theologically speaking. I have to remind myself that the BB is an eclectic mix. In the end it is not "my" truth that I contend for, it is God's truth. All of us need to be careful not to exceed the clear teaching of scripture or to allow personal feelings towards a poster to draw us away from glorifying God. The latter has reminded me that there is still work to be done on my level of sanctification!

Soli Deo Gloria!

We are an eclectic bunch because we are Baptists & because we allow for religious liberties. And this is my argument against changing names of churches away from Baptist.

 

[Skandelon]

This should not discourage us. We are saddened for them

Why? Because God sovereignly decreed for us to believe what we believe for his own glory? Why would that sadden you?

Be consistent. God's decrees, according to your own dogma, were made for His greatest glory, therefore it seems contradictory for you to be saddened by them. You should delight in the decree of God to make us not quite as insightful as you with regard to soteriology.

sense personally this important battle for the Truth,

A battle against who exactly? And if you believe what was said, that 'it is just as much an act of grace to correct erroneous doctrine as it is for a sinner to be converted,' then isn't your battle against the very irresistible decree of God that converted you? Do you think you can debate God into changing our mind or something?

and feel wounded for our Lord as He is impugned

So, you believe the Lord impugns himself? You must if you agree that it is by the same irresistible grace that God must correct our false theology, for what other explanation is there? Clearly, God has decreed for us to disagree with you and thus He 'impugns himself,' if what you believe it accurate.

As I have written elsewhere, doctrine always divides. It should not surprise us. It divides sheep and goats, wheat and tares, the righteous from the lawless, the good tree from the corrupt tree, the fruitful abiding branches from branches that are removed.

I agree, but I've also found that those who presume they are good tree are very often the one's being self deceived.

 

[Winman]

This should not discourage us. We are saddened for them, sense personally this important battle for the Truth, and feel wounded for our Lord as He is impugned, nevertheless His eternal purpose is being worked out to a glorious consummation. I recall someone saying once that our Christian hope, is not wishful thinking. It is a confident expectation.

You are also right about the doctrine. As I have written elsewhere, doctrine always divides. It should not surprise us. It divides sheep and goats, wheat and tares, the righteous from the lawless, the good tree from the corrupt tree, the fruitful abiding branches from branches that are removed.

Therefore, be encouraged! We all are praying for you!

Oh brother, it's getting deep now. I have to leave the room, it stinks in here.

 

[DocTrinsoGrace]

Why? Because God sovereignly decreed for us to believe what we believe for his own glory? Why would that sadden you?

Sir, I would love to deliberate with you. However, it would serve no benefit. I only know you in this thread. Every post you display such rancor and bitterness, it clouds your mind to the point of precluding rational thought. Using pugnacity, baiting, and criticism won't yield good fruit (Luke 6:43-44). When anyone wants something other than the truth, it is sad, very sad, indeed. It is made even sadder by how compassion seems so alien to you. If such gnashing of teeth happens in this life, what does the future hold (Luke 13:28)?

I am very excited, though, because your exposing yourself on the forum in this fashion provides a wonderful opportunity for the Kingdom. Every believer reading this, regardless of their position, will be praying for us, now and in the future! God in His sovereignty will certainly care for us in a far more specific, thorough, superior, and pervasive way than anything that we might hope to do for one another.

 

[Iconoclast]

Skandelon

Why? Because God sovereignly decreed for us to believe what we believe for his own glory? Why would that sadden you?

WHY? because we do not believe in fatalism and you are fully responsible before God .

Be consistent.

We are.....that is why you and winman object and get frustrated.

God's decrees, according to your own dogma, were made for His greatest glory

,

God's decree and His own glory are revealed truth....not something we make up.We read it ,understand it,and believe it. You and winman turn from it,question,and scoff at it.

therefore it seems contradictory for you to be saddened by them.

Jesus wept over Jerusalem. They were fully responsible,but would not come.He knew they were going ahead to the judgement.

You should delight in the decree of God to make us not quite as insightful as you with regard to soteriology

.

What you describe is not the biblical revelation but carnal reasoning that is flawed.....
the Apostles themselves urged the church....we would not have you to be ignorant,or we want to bring to your remembrance,etc......they were responsible to grow,study, believe, exercise faith.

A battle against who exactly?

A battle implies there is a perceived attack.There is an attack against saving truth and the God who authored it.

And if you believe what was said, that 'it is just as much an act of grace to correct erroneous doctrine as it is for a sinner to be converted,' then isn't your battle against the very irresistible decree of God that converted you? Do you think you can debate God into changing our mind or something?

The fact that you can even speak this way in terms of the biblical God is off.

So, you believe the Lord impugns himself?

Again this is horrible.

You must if you agree that it is by the same irresistible grace that God must correct our false theology, for what other explanation is there?

Scripture is clear on the error of many;
18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Clearly, God has decreed for us to disagree with you and thus He 'impugns himself,' if what you believe it accurate.

There is a full spectrum of belief and unbelief,in the church,and outside the church that will be fully known at the judgement.I am sure this division existed in the day of noah also, until the day God shut the door on the ARK.

The carnal philosophy did not help those souls who remained in doubt and unbelief who remained outside the ARK did it? They were"free" to remain in their error however no one would recommend that course of action looking back.

 

[quantumfaith]

Winman is incorrect in his assertion that Reformed use Scripture less.

It is a fact that the Reformed use Scripture much more often in the real world and on BB, and also rightly handle the Word as well.

That said we could all use it more.

Winman always uses scripture to support his positions. Using "scripture' is not and should not always be held to be "end all" discussion because EVERYONE, including yourself, use and interpret scripture to suit themselves and their position. But I do understand you need to score points, at least in your own eyes.

 

[Skandelon]

Sir, I would love to deliberate with you. However, it would serve no benefit. I only know you in this thread. Every post you display such rancor and bitterness, it clouds your mind to the point of precluding rational thought.

Using pugnacity, baiting, and criticism won't yield good fruit (Luke 6:43-44). When anyone wants something other than the truth, it is sad, very sad, indeed. It is made even sadder by how compassion seems so alien to you. If such gnashing of teeth happens in this life, what does the future hold (Luke 13:28)?

I am very excited, though, because your exposing yourself on the forum in this fashion provides a wonderful opportunity for the Kingdom. Every believer reading this, regardless of their position, will be praying for us, now and in the future! God in His sovereignty will certainly care for us in a far more specific, thorough, superior, and pervasive way than anything that we might hope to do for one another.

Whoa...talk about getting personal... somehow from my questions, comments and objections your have discerned I'm bitter, can't have rational thought, and I desire something other than truth. Wow.

This is against our rules and if it wasn't about me I'd have to give you an infraction. What exactly have I wrote that has gotten you so personally combative? Everything I've written has been about doctrine, but yet you attack my personhood? Why do you resort to ad homenium attacks instead of doing what this board is designed to do and debate differing theological points?

 

[DocTrinsoGrace]

I will give you the secrets to dealing effectively with Calvinists (continued):

9. Do own everything that you say. It uniquely belongs to you and no one else. Let others own what they say.

10 Do not make broad inferences about what other people are saying. Instead, take the words at face value, applying the same standard that you hope others will do with your words.

11. Do cite logical fallacies when they exist. However, be sure that you understand those fallacies. Claiming that one exists, when none is present, will weaken your argument.

12. Do not take things personally. The fact that people are talking to you at all demonstrates that they have an interest in you. Beyond that, you can demonstrate your own interest in others by disengaging your sensitivity. Taking things personally reveals an interest in only one thing, not the subject and not the others involved.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

..... And the horse you came in here on. ROFL!!!

 

[InTheLight]

I will give you the secrets to dealing effectively with Calvinists (continued):

Why don't you address the OP instead?