IF You Hold To Sign Gifts Operating, what verse/Function?

[DaChaser1]

neither one of these claims relates to signs of the apostles at all.

true, but would say that IF the story happened as reported, thatwould be an example of genuine tongues as a gift for today given by God for that occasion, as would be as in he spoke one language, but they heard message in theirs!

NOT a sign of an Apostle today , as both offices of Apostle/prophet in church ceased after the Apsotoloc Age!

 

[Iconoclast]

true, but would say that IF the story happened as reported, thatwould be an example of genuine tongues as a gift for today given by God for that occasion, as would be as in he spoke one language, but they heard message in theirs!

NOT a sign of an Apostle today , as both offices of Apostle/prophet in church ceased after the Apsotoloc Age!

God will do whatever he desires to do as He is God and we are not.

Believers are not called to look outside the sure word of God once given to the saints.

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

God has given His word as protection.....we know it is certain. If God does something that he has not revealed to us.....that is His perogative.

 

[robertguwapito]

true, but would say that IF the story happened as reported, thatwould be an example of genuine tongues as a gift for today given by God for that occasion, as would be as in he spoke one language, but they heard message in theirs!

NOT a sign of an Apostle today , as both offices of Apostle/prophet in church ceased after the Apsotoloc Age!

I assure you, that story indeed happened. We have no reason to believe he was lying. :thumbs:

 

[righteousdude2]

there are many...

I assure you, that story indeed happened. We have no reason to believe he was lying. :thumbs:

...stories of God intervening, and I have no cause to take spiritual pause (doubt it). If it happened, and it is supported by events from OT/Nt stories, then it more than likely took place, and who am I, or even you, not to believe that God can do what someone reports "In good faith!"

Peter was miraculously set free from prison, and he made his way to the Bible study and prayer meeting being held with the purpose of seeing God set Peter free.

Note that the woman who answered the door, and saw Peter standing there, shut the door and went in and told the others that Peter was at the door.

It was evident that from the woman who answered the door, to those in the prayer meeting, disbelief reigned supreme. The folks didn't expect Peter to be set free as he was, nor when he was, therefore, they were taken aback in the beginning.

Isn't that the way it is whenever God does His thing? We have one view, or one expectation of how God is to do what we are asking and believing Him to do. So when HE breaks the expected pattern and does something that is not in the box of their limited faith, there is momentary disbelief and even questions as to how such and such could have ever happened the way it did.

Instead of praising Him for Peter's supernatural jail break, there were questions and disbelief. This is because the believers are still operating out of their flesh, and unable to see beyond the supernatural abilities of the God, they serve.

Most of us pray by telling God how we want or expect Him to do the thing we need done. However, God is going to do what He wants, and it is our job to simply accept His handiwork.

Billy Graham spoke of an unseen band of warring angels that surrounded a missionary and his wife during the Zulu uprising in Africa. When the tribe came to kill the man and his wife, they mysteriously left, and it wasn't until the leader of the Sulu uprising was in jail and asked why he spared the missionaries, that the husband and wife discovered that the tribes were overwhelmed with the presence of these angels.

God does great and awesome things, in HIS name, and if chose to stand around and debate HIS handiwork, so be it. Those who doubt and question are the ones who miss out on the revelation of HIS supernatural hand at work in OUR world. I am more prone to accept what I see and hear, because I have seen some very strange and unusual events over my lifetime. And as long as my God-dar (radar) matched up with what I believed the word says, and I know HE can do; I am willing to accept it as it is.

Everyone has their way of seeing things, but if this story is in line with what HE can and will do, then I have no trouble believing HE did it. The proof is always in the pudding (so to speak) and if what is done brings glory to HIM and not others, then it is more than likely God at the helm!

NOTE to Robert: If the story is reputable, and it brought glory to God while lifting Him up to others ( and not the person, or persons in the story), then you have every right to believe and stand by the story.

 

[robertguwapito]

Well, the next thing I will be asked to undergo is a lie detector test. INCOMING! :smilewinkgrin:

 

[righteousdude2]

There's...

Well, the next thing I will be asked to undergo is a lie detector test. INCOMING! :smilewinkgrin:

...no need to reply if you really, truly believe what you have made an accounting of! Stand your ground...

 

[DaChaser1]

...stories of God intervening, and I have no cause to take spiritual pause (doubt it). If it happened, and it is supported by events from OT/Nt stories, then it more than likely took place, and who am I, or even you, not to believe that God can do what someone reports "In good faith!"

Peter was miraculously set free from prison, and he made his way to the Bible study and prayer meeting being held with the purpose of seeing God set Peter free.

Note that the woman who answered the door, and saw Peter standing there, shut the door and went in and told the others that Peter was at the door.

It was evident that from the woman who answered the door, to those in the prayer meeting, disbelief reigned supreme. The folks didn't expect Peter to be set free as he was, nor when he was, therefore, they were taken aback in the beginning.

Isn't that the way it is whenever God does His thing? We have one view, or one expectation of how God is to do what we are asking and believing Him to do. So when HE breaks the expected pattern and does something that is not in the box of their limited faith, there is momentary disbelief and even questions as to how such and such could have ever happened the way it did.

Instead of praising Him for Peter's supernatural jail break, there were questions and disbelief. This is because the believers are still operating out of their flesh, and unable to see beyond the supernatural abilities of the God, they serve.

Most of us pray by telling God how we want or expect Him to do the thing we need done. However, God is going to do what He wants, and it is our job to simply accept His handiwork.

Billy Graham spoke of an unseen band of warring angels that surrounded a missionary and his wife during the Zulu uprising in Africa. When the tribe came to kill the man and his wife, they mysteriously left, and it wasn't until the leader of the Sulu uprising was in jail and asked why he spared the missionaries, that the husband and wife discovered that the tribes were overwhelmed with the presence of these angels.

God does great and awesome things, in HIS name, and if chose to stand around and debate HIS handiwork, so be it. Those who doubt and question are the ones who miss out on the revelation of HIS supernatural hand at work in OUR world. I am more prone to accept what I see and hear, because I have seen some very strange and unusual events over my lifetime. And as long as my God-dar (radar) matched up with what I believed the word says, and I know HE can do; I am willing to accept it as it is.

Everyone has their way of seeing things, but if this story is in line with what HE can and will do, then I have no trouble believing HE did it. The proof is always in the pudding (so to speak) and if what is done brings glory to HIM and not others, then it is more than likely God at the helm!

NOTE to Robert: If the story is reputable, and it brought glory to God while lifting Him up to others ( and not the person, or persons in the story), then you have every right to believe and stand by the story.

Think the problem is that NO one here disputes that God cannot do healings/tongues for missionaries etc..
It just that those thing are rare exceptions, NOT the norm, as the Holy spirit is NOT operating in same fashion as he was in life of jesus and the Apostles!

 

[righteousdude2]

Not to be Disrespectful...

It just that those thing are rare exceptions, NOT the norm, as the Holy spirit is NOT operating in same fashion as he was in life of jesus and the Apostles!

....but, isn't that view putting God in a box and not allowing for Him to do as He promised He'd do in John 14:12?

New International Version (©1984)
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
(©2007)

New Living Translation
"I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father.

English Standard Version (©2001)
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

International Standard Version (©2008)
"Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, the one who believes in me will also do what I am doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
“Timeless truth, I tell you: 'whoever believes in me, those works which I have done he will also do, and he will do greater works than these, because I am going to the presence of my Father.' “

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"I can guarantee this truth: Those who believe in me will do the things that I am doing. They will do even greater things because I am going to the Father.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believes on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

American King James Version
Truly, truly, I say to you, He that believes on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go to my Father.

American Standard Version
Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Otherwise believe for the very works' sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do.

Darby Bible Translation
Verily, verily, I say to you, He that believes on me, the works which I do shall he do also, and he shall do greater than these, because I go to the Father.

English Revised Version
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.

Webster's Bible Translation
Verily, verily, I say to you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go to my Father.

Weymouth New Testament
In most solemn truth I tell you that he who trusts in me--the things which I do he shall do also; and greater things than these he shall do, because I am going to the Father.

World English Bible
Most certainly I tell you, he who believes in me, the works that I do, he will do also; and he will do greater works than these, because I am going to my Father.

ALSO:
Barnes' Notes on the Bible - He that believeth on me - This promise had doubtless special reference to the apostles themselves. They were full of grief at his departure, and Jesus, in order to console them, directed them to the great honor which was to be conferred on them, and to the assurance that God would not leave them, but would attend them in their ministry with the demonstrations of his mighty power. It cannot be understood of all his followers, for the circumstances of the promise do not require us to understand it thus, and it has not been a matter of fact that All Christians have possessed power to do greater works than the Lord Jesus. It is a general promise that greater works than he performed should be done by his followers, without specifying that all his followers would be instrumental in doing them.

The works that I do - The miracles of healing the sick, raising the dead, etc. This was done by the apostles in many instances. See Acts 5:15; Acts 19:12; Acts 13:11; Acts 5:1-10.

Greater works than these shall he do - Interpreters have been at a loss in what way to understand this. The most probable meaning of the passage is the following: The word "greater" cannot refer to the miracles themselves, for the works of the apostles did not exceed those of Jesus in power. No higher exertion of power was put forth, or could be, than raising the dead. But, though not greater in themselves considered, yet they were greater in their effects. They made a deeper impression on mankind. They were attended with more extensive results. They were the means of the conversion of more sinners. The works of Jesus were confined to Judea. They were seen by few. The works of the apostles were witnessed by many nations, and the effect of their miracles and preaching was that thousands from among the Jews and Gentiles were converted to the Christian faith. The word "greater" here is used, therefore, not to denote the absolute exertion of power, but the effect which the miracles would have on mankind. The word "works" here probably denotes not merely miracles, but all things that the apostles did that made an impression on mankind, including their travels, their labors, their doctrine, etc.

Because I go unto my Father - He would there intercede for them, and especially by his going to the Father the Holy Spirit would he sent down to attend them in their ministry, John 14:26, John 14:28; John 16:7-14. See Matthew 28:18. By his going to the Father is particularly denoted his exaltation to heaven, and his being placed as head over all things to his church, Ephesians 1:20-23; Philippians 2:9-11. By his being exalted there the Holy Spirit was given John 16:7, and by his power thus put forth the Gentiles were brought to hear and obey the gospel.

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible - And greater works than these - The miracles which I have wrought could not have been wrought but by the omnipotence of God; but that omnipotence can work greater. And those who believe on my name shall, through my almighty power, be enabled to work greater miracles than those which l have ordinarily wrought. An impostor might seduce the people by false miracles; but he could not make his power and cunning pass to all those who were seduced by him: but I will give you this proof of the divinity of my mission and the truth of my doctrine.

Perhaps the greater works refer to the immense multitudes that were brought to God by the ministry of the apostles. By the apostles was the doctrine of Christ spread far and wide; while Christ confined his ministry chiefly to the precincts of Judea. It is certainly the greatest miracle of Divine grace to convert the obstinate, wicked heart of man from sin to holiness. This was done in numberless cases by the disciples, who were endued with power from on high, while proclaiming remission of sins through faith in his blood.

Some account for the greater works thus:

1. The very shadow of Peter healed the diseased, Acts 5:15.

2. Diseases were cured, and demons cast out, by applying to the persons handkerchiefs and aprons that had before touched the body of Paul, Acts 19:12.

3. By the word of Peter, Ananias and Sapphira were struck dead, Acts 5:5, Acts 5:9, Acts 5:10.

4. Elymas the sorcerer was struck blind by the word of Paul, Acts 13:11.

5. Christ only preached in Judea, and in the language only of that country; but the apostles preached through the most of the then known world, and in all the languages of all countries. But let it be remarked that all this was done by the power of Christ; and I think it still more natural to attribute the greater works to the greater number of conversions made under the apostles' ministry. The reason which our Lord gives for this is worthy of deep attention: -

 

[Iconoclast]

It cannot be understood of all his followers, for the circumstances of the promise do not require us to understand it thus,

This promise had doubtless special reference to the apostles themselves.

The word "greater" cannot refer to the miracles themselves, for the works of the apostles did not exceed those of Jesus in power. No higher exertion of power was put forth

The greater works are understood in the fulfillment of the Great Commission going worldwide.

 

[righteousdude2]

The greater works are understood in the fulfillment of the Great Commission going worldwide.

Bold emphasis is mine!

And what other verses and examples in Scripture can you produce to support the fact that it is "understood" (merely, dismissive in nature) to refer the greater works as being merely the Great Commission?

 

[Iconoclast]

Bold emphasis is mine!

And what other verses and examples in Scripture can you produce to support the fact that it is "understood" (merely, dismissive in nature) to refer the greater works as being merely the Great Commission?

as being merely the Great Commission

Bold emphasis is mine!

The great work of the Great Shepherd is saving those given to Him by the Father. This is a supernatural work. To speak of it as...".merely the great commission"
This is the work of God.....to say "merely' suggests a grave misunderstanding of the Eternal purpose of God.

God so loved ...The world.....Jesus and the Apostles only brought salvation to that portion of the world.

There are no apostles to perform signs of the Apostles today.
The signs of the Apostles were to credential the word of God.
We now have that Apostolic word.

No where is the greater works sign gifts....but salvation...some who were healed , or saw sign gifts perished.....it was not the sign, but the believing unto salvation that was in view.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[QUOTE1 Thessalonians 2:13
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe][/QUOTE]


I could put half the bible in here as far as the centrality of the cross work of Christ.

:thumbsup:

read here;
http://www.sbts.edu/documents/tschreiner/John14_12.pdf

Even during Jesus lifetime before the cross..power was for a time given unto the 70...what did Jesus tell them???

17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

 

[righteousdude2]

Thanks..

The great work of the Great Shepherd is saving those given to Him by the Father. This is a supernatural work. To speak of it as...".merely the great commission"
This is the work of God.....to say "merely' suggests a grave misunderstanding of the Eternal purpose of God.

God so loved ...The world.....Jesus and the Apostles only brought salvation to that portion of the world.

There are no apostles to perform signs of the Apostles today.
The signs of the Apostles were to credential the word of God.
We now have that Apostolic word.

No where is the greater works sign gifts....but salvation...some who were healed , or saw sign gifts perished.....it was not the sign, but the believing unto salvation that was in view.





[QUOTE1 Thessalonians 2:13
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe]

I could put half the bible in here as far as the centrality of the cross work of Christ.

:thumbsup:

read here;
http://www.sbts.edu/documents/tschreiner/John14_12.pdf[/QUOTE]

..:thumbsup:

 

[DaChaser1]

I could put half the bible in here as far as the centrality of the cross work of Christ.

:thumbsup:

read here;
http://www.sbts.edu/documents/tschreiner/John14_12.pdf

..:thumbsup:[/QUOTE]

"Greater works then these" refers NOT to the type, but the extent!

NONE have even raised one truely back to life since Apostolic times...

Nor have done confirmable miracles as thew Lord did...

refers to the fact that while on earth, jesus 'stuck" in a body, but now raised, and through his church, can be everywhere saving people at same time, as now he in and through us can witness around the World!