IF You Hold To Sign Gifts Operating, what verse/Function?

[Amy.G]

An example lies within the fact that ic continues to insist that tongue represents language. I disagree.

What exactly in scripture makes you think tongues were not languages?

Acts 2:4-6 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

 

[righteousdude2]

Twisting in the wind...

You jumped in and attacked,Saying Amy was using satans tactics...

And I had the GUTS to apologize to Amy...what are you to her, her guardian angel? Does Amy need you to represent her? She seems more than able to hold her own, and I am not attacking her beliefs, simply offering my views.

And I never directly accused her of using satanic tactics. I said that the example she provided was the same used by the devil on Jesus in the wilderness temptations.

So, once again, you are twisting words, and meanins to make yourself appear all puffed up and bigger than life. :sleep:

 

[righteousdude2]

It depends on the text....

What exactly in scripture makes you think tongues were not languages?

Acts 2:4-6 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

There are several different versions of this verse that use " and others that use " I prefer to use language. I think we both have to agree that when it comes to the Word, there are many views and many versions of how one text or even one word can read. It is all in the eye of the beholder, and in this case, I am beholding to "language" while it appears you are beholding to " So be it. That is your choice. And who knows, it may be the right one. Only time will tell? Right?

 

[Amy.G]

There are several different versions of this verse that use " and others that use " I prefer to use language. I think we both have to agree that when it comes to the Word, there are many views and many versions of how one text or even one word can read. It is all in the eye of the beholder, and in this case, I am beholding to "language" while it appears you are beholding to " So be it. That is your choice. And who knows, it may be the right one. Only time will tell? Right?

I don't really know what you are saying here, but you apparently you don't have any scripture to back up your belief. I gave you scripture which proves "tongues" were actual languages, but you would rather ignore that and stick to your non language language.

 

[Iconoclast]

And I had the GUTS to apologize to Amy...what are you to her, her guardian angel? Does Amy need you to represent her? She seems more than able to hold her own, and I am not attacking her beliefs, simply offering my views.

And I never directly accused her of using satanic tactics. I said that the example she provided was the same used by the devil on Jesus in the wilderness temptations.

So, once again, you are twisting words, and meanins to make yourself appear all puffed up and bigger than life. :sleep:

Well dude..what can i say...it seems like someone peed in your cornflakes, and you took a few spoonfuls, and now are frustrated at the world.

You never answered my one main question to you.....in your personal attacks directed at me.....you say several times that i want everyone to believe exactly what I believe, or that I think everything I post is right.

I answered you by saying that everyone posts what they believe is true.

No one posts error intentionally. The truth is you do not like the teaching , the doctrine ,that I offer,You do not like the historic confessions of faith, because they agree. When I post a link...you can not answer it.

You keep objecting ..saying my theology, my view, but you have no answer to the millions who hold exactly what i hold to as the truth of God.
You would not let it go. I would have kept this disagreement private if you emptied your inbox, when you sent your pompous Pm.

There is no way we are going to agree on much here dude...as you go outside of scripture...with your prophet....and your "special tongue"...which somehow is not a language now?? there is no agreement possible here, you have another gospel according to your posting to me...remember when you said the god I follow..or whatever it was ??? I think you went over the edge.

Maybe someone else can communicate with you better than I can. My real brothers offer me correction from scripture if i drift off....not personal attacks.
Dude not for anything ...but you would be an easy target if i wanted to rip on you personally.....but that is an ungodly approach to our differences.

if you are going to post in a debate forum...then get questioned....be prepared to answer...if not you are going to continue to get upset,and defensive which does no one any good.

sorry I cannot help you dude...

 

[righteousdude2]

Well. you said what I said...

I don't really know what you are saying here, but you apparently you don't have any scripture to back up your belief. I gave you scripture which proves "tongues" were actual languages, but you would rather ignore that and stick to your non language language.

I gave you a scripture (in post #64, and you are simply trying my patience) which proves "tongues" were actual "languages"! I do not disagree with this; however, the text I refer to is 1 Cor. 14:4, and again; some versions use tongues, while others use language. Like I said, I prefer to call it a language, as I said in another post to you, because when we pray, the Holy Ghost takes our words (language) and interprets in a word (language) that God can understand (even our groaning and utterances). To add to this, how many different languages are spoken around this world, let alone the many different dialects. And while I can't even begin to speak another language, it should be noted that when believers, with another language prays, the Holy Ghost takes their words to God in a language that God can understand, even though we cannot.

And as far as it being a secret language that the devil cannot understand. Well, that is bunk. If the devil could go to God and talk to Him about Job, I would never be dumb enough to say that Satan is not able to understand what our prayers to God are. It was apparent that Satan heard everything that went on between Job and God, which is why he asked God for permission to test Job!

Why can't you simply let it lay as I have said, because I am not going to call it a tongue, when I clearly believe it was a language then and remains so today? Again, you say tomato, and I say tomatoe! No big deal. Unless you are willing to come right out tell me that my belief in it being a language vs, a tongue will keep me from going to heaven?

Is that what you are trying to say?

 

[Amy.G]

Unless you are willing to come right out tell me that my belief in it being a language vs, a tongue will keep me from going to heaven?

Is that what you are trying to say?

Of course not. Why would you even ask that? We disagree and you are too sensitive to be involved in debates, so we'll just leave it here. :wavey:

 

[righteousdude2]

Twisting, Again!

You never answered my one main question to you.....in your personal attacks directed at me.....you say several times that i want everyone to believe exactly what I believe, or that I think everything I post is right. NO...I just never answered it to YOUR satisfaction!

I answered you by saying that everyone posts what they believe is true. No need to reply, because I certainly wouldn't post what I believe to be true!

No one posts error intentionally. AGREED The truth is you do not like the teaching , the doctrine ,that I offer Duh! Maybe because your teaching is no more to my liking than mine is to you! ,You do not like the historic confessions of faith, because they agree. When I post a link...you can not answer it.

You keep objecting ..saying my theology, my view, but you have no answer to the millions And there are MILLIONS who hold to what I belive - detente! who hold exactly what i hold to as the truth of God.
You would not let it go. I would have kept this disagreement private if you emptied your inbox, when you sent your pompous Pm. Well, excuse me...but there you are WRONG again. My box was emptied the day you mentioned it on the thread..
There is no way we are going to agree on much here dude...RIGHT as you go outside of scripture WRONG...with your prophet....and your "special tongue"...which somehow is not a language now?? there is no agreement possible here, you have another gospel according to your posting to me AS DO YOU, HAVE ANOTHER GOSPEL ACCORDING TO YOURSELF...remember when you said the god I follow..or whatever it was ??? I think you went over the edge.

Maybe someone else can communicate with you better than I can YOU ARE RIGHT, AND THAT IS GOD. I ONLY LISTEN TO HIM, AS SHOULD ALL OF US. IF I ERR, THAT IS BETWEEN HIM AND I, NOT YOU AND I. My real brothers offer me correction from scripture if i drift off THAT IS WHAT YOU SAY. O DOUBT, FROM WHAT I SEE, THAT THERE RARELY, IF EVER HAPPENS? ....not personal attacks.
Dude not for anything ...but you would be an easy target if i wanted to rip on you personally.....but that is an ungodly approach to our differences. WELL AT LEAST YOU HAVE SOME PRINCIPLES, AND FOR THAT I APPLAUD YOU!!!
if you are going to post in a debate forum...then get questioned....be prepared to answer...if not you are going to continue to get upset,and defensive which does no one any good.

sorry I cannot help you dude...NEVER ONCE DID I ASK FOR YOUR ADVICE OR HELP. I GO TO GOD FOR THAT, NOT ICONOCLAST.

I have only one question to ask you: ARE YOU SO FULL OF YOURSELF THAT YOU ARE WILLING TO SAY THAT because of thing I've shared that I'm not going to heaven?

Because if that is not what you are insinuating, then why the hard push to get me to believe as you? It sure seems that you have set yourself up as judge and jury when it comes to what I believe and how I interpret Scripture, and that is not up to you do. Never once did I try to convince you that my way was the only, or right way. However, that is what this whole thing has come down to. It's your way or the highway when it comes to those of us on this board that may be a little to the left or right of what you call main line Baptist theology. If you can live with yourself, fine with me. You don't bother me, but I am concerned as to your underlying pining that if I believe the way, I do; I may not get eternal life!

As I said in another post to you: I am perfectly happy with MY LIFE IN JESUS CHRIST!
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[preacher4truth]

I have only one question to ask you: ARE YOU SO FULL OF YOURSELF THAT YOU ARE WILLING TO SAY THAT because of thing I've shared that I'm not going to heaven?

Because if that is not what you are insinuating, then why the hard push to get me to believe as you? It sure seems that you have set yourself up as judge and jury when it comes to what I believe and how I interpret Scripture, and that is not up to you do. Never once did I try to convince you that my way was the only, or right way. However, that is what this whole thing has come down to. It's your way or the highway when it comes to those of us on this board that may be a little to the left or right of what you call main line Baptist theology. If you can live with yourself, fine with me. You don't bother me, but I am concerned as to your underlying pining that if I believe the way, I do; I may not get eternal life!

As I said in another post to you: I am perfectly happy with MY LIFE IN JESUS CHRIST!
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

:laugh:

Lighten up Francis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OnpkDWbeJs

RD2, Please take Amy's advice...you are way too sensitive to debate. It may be best for you to not debate as you get easily twisted.

Also, no one is even slightly questioning where you will spend eternity.

 

[DaChaser1]

Jf,

You cannot defend the position from scripture because you yourself have many times opened the door to it!

that is why I said to you wayne grudems error leads to this mystical ,feeling oriented,excess.....you cannot answer it...

i can, as the Bible is the final /complete revelation from the Lordto us, NO more were forthcoming from after after Apostle John passed..

I see it as NOT revealtion, nor really a sign gift, but that the HS can still prompt/urge/direct/convict saints in order to have the Will of God done, and he always will do that aspect in perfect alnement with the bible!

 

[DaChaser1]

I see you are a fount of bad teaching.

Yes, I know you are trying to portray us as advocating this position, but that's not right. I think this sort of teaching is wrong as well.

Just because many people in the charismatic movement, especially one's you SE on television, had bad theology, doesn't mean that all have it. Furthermore, it certainly doesn't mean that we on BaptistBoard advocate it just because we may agree with Charismatics that some of the sign gifts may be manifested today.

Since both you and Roman Catholics believe that Jesus is the Unique Son of God, should I make the claim that you Hold to Catholic doctrine?

Just curious, do you hold to second aspect, 'baptism by holy Ghost?"
that one MUST speak in tongues to evidence that fact?

that we can confess and speak by words/faith things to happen?

that its will of God for all of to prosper health and money wise, if we dont, "lack of faith?"

And what would sign gifts actually be used for?

 

[DaChaser1]

That's the traditional saying, but that's not what the Bible says. The book of Acts testifies of believers other than the apostles exercising the gifts. Paul's letter to the church of Corinth teaches that the gifts are for the church, not just the apostles.

Jesus Himself also testified that these signs will follow those who believe, not just the apostles.

except that the 'sign gifts" were given to Apostles/prophets of NT apsotolic age, in order to confirm the truth od the Gosepl message, and to grant revelation orally to local churches at founding of NT age...

EVEN paul had "lost" power to heal later on in bible, and the writer of hebrews stated that those signs and wonders to confirm the truths Apsotle gave, but were pretty much NOT in the generation following the Apostles!

 

[Baptist Believer]

Just curious, do you hold to second aspect, 'baptism by holy Ghost?"
that one MUST speak in tongues to evidence that fact?

No, of course not.

that we can confess and speak by words/faith things to happen?

Must? Nope.

However, authority in the Kingdom is God is administrated through words, among other activities. For instance, the centurion who asked Jesus to heal his servant who was paralyzed understood that kingdoms were managed by commands. He recognized the Kingdom of God for what it was, God’s authority upon the heavens and earth, and he had confidence in Jesus as the primary Administrator of that authority to heal his servant with a command from a distance. (See Matthew 8:5-13)

Many of the miracles that Jesus and the apostles performed were performed (as far as the human aspect goes) exclusively by command.

that its will of God for all of to prosper health and money wise, if we dont, "lack of faith?"

Of course not.

And what would sign gifts actually be used for?

As I said in my first post in this discussion, “Legitimate sign gifts are used as signs for believers and unbelievers to authenticate the message of the speaker as a representative of God.”

Unfortunately, we've had several individuals who want to ascribe all kinds of heretical and abusive theology to those who disagree with them, so it is understandable that some of our positions may not be as clear as they should be.

Thank you for actually asking instead of misrepresenting/mocking.

 

[DaChaser1]

...is not pure emotion. It was real, but if you don't believe in these things, I can see why you would hold to that understanding.

I once didn't believe in the gifts of prophecy, but having been subjected to the ministry of a prophet, and seeing, over time, how the words of the Father have come to pass; I can no longer judge those caught up in and practicing these gifts as working out of "pure emotion!"

Amy, we serve a supernatural God (meaning there are going to be things manifested in and through others that are nothingless than supernatural, or without explanation). Just as everything that has happened, throughout the age of man was new and strange and miraculous to them, there is nothing stopping God from doing the same in revealing Himself and manifesting His awesome gifts and wonders in our time, too!

We simply should not get to the point where we limit Him by what we think we understand, or like so many, throughout time, we can be left behind.

Do you not hold to the teaching that there will be a rapture? And if you want to believe in that event, how can you really support it since the word "rapture" does not appear in text, anywhere? It is a made-up word to describe an event that will be as supernatural as any man has and will ever see.

So how is holding to that hope or event any different than holding to the idea that God is still working through us in "signs and wonders?" God thinks so highly of us that in 1 Corinthian 6:2-3 (AMP), we are told that "Do you not know that the saints (the believers) will [one-day] day] judge and govern the world? And if the world [itself] is to be judged and ruled by you, are you unworthy and incompetent to try [such petty matters] of the smallest courts of justice? Do you not know also that we [Christians] are to judge the [very] angels and pronounce an opinion between right and wrong [for them]? How much more then [as to] matters pertaining to this world and of this life only!"

While on the planet, we are in a comprehensive On-the-Job-training program. We've been deputized by Jesus to act on behalf of the Father, and to limit the acts we have been entrusted to enact, limits the awesomeness of God Himself in the lives of those we come in contact with.

The idea that many hold to (that the gifts ceased to continue after John's death on the Isle of Patamos), makes no sense if we are going to be ambassadors, deputized by Jesus, to show the world the wonder of the awesome God we come by the name of.

Of course, we need to prayerfully be cognizant of the charlatans of life. The flashes for the cash preachers are around every corner, and we need to temper and act in accordance, being careful not to go overboard, or be caught up in the spiritual hysterics that many churches have given way to.

There's a spiritual fine line to walk, sort of like the narrow path we walk, and we need to be extremely careful not to wonder, stray, or go in a different direction other than forward, as we move within the perimeters of the arsenal of weapons and gifts. He has given us to use.

For instance, I have been used to pray for healing and seen healing come. However, that gift is not always going to be applicable to every instance I come across. I have moved in discernment, and prophecy, but, then again, it is not an every day event that manifests itself every time I minister in Jesus's name. I operate in the gift of love, but there are times I must operate in the gift of tough love, or not being too loved to do to the nature of the party and their willingness to receive.

Each gift will be manifest itself within me when it is critical and necessary to the situation, and it always is used to lift Him up, NOT me!

the Operation of Sign Gifts will be manifested in spiritual moderation, and always in line with His will and not ours. Not everyone who says pray for my healing will be healed and returned to this life (they die, a greater form of healing). Preaching the Word of God is a combination of prophetic gifts and discernement skills, coming together to bless, enhance and enlighten those present to hear the Word.

Finally, while I pray in a special prayer language, I am careful to not offend those who don't or those who question its existance altogether. My prayer language is for God and myself, not for anyone else, and it only manifests itself on certain ocassions, and I do not know when it will surface, which means I can't make it happen without Him.

The Lord can still do IF its according to His will a "sign and wonder" as in healing someone, but that is ALL His choose to heal as a miracle or not...

Also, Do know that God can still do limited amount of such to establish the gospel in unevangelized areas IF He so choses, but even that would cease when gospel was confirmed in those lands!

Also, 'sign gifts" would be those that in NT use were revealtory in nature, issued by God through ofiice of the NT Apostles/prophets, buit are those 2 offoces still in effect today in church?

 

[Baptist Believer]

except that the 'sign gifts" were given to Apostles/prophets of NT apsotolic age, in order to confirm the truth od the Gosepl message, and to grant revelation orally to local churches at founding of NT age...

Yes. They are not needed as much in today's work, but I believe God still uses them from time to time for His sovereign purposes.

EVEN paul had "lost" power to heal later on in bible...

Where in the world did you get this idea?

Paul raised a young man from the dead in Acts 20:9-12...

If you are commenting on Paul's "thorn in the flesh", that is not about the ability to heal, since the ability to heal has always been granted according to the sovereign will of God. Jesus Himself only healed people as the Father directed, not according to His own will (see John 5:19-30, among many other passages in John regarding the relationship between Jesus and the Father).

and the writer of hebrews stated that those signs and wonders to confirm the truths Apsotle gave, but were pretty much NOT in the generation following the Apostles!

If you are referring to Hebrews 2:3-4 (please correct me if I'm wrong), it says nothing of the sort. Some people, who already hold a view against the sign gifts, find an inference that the sign gifts have ceased since the author identifies those who had heard Jesus personally had been used of the Holy Spirit using sign gifts, but that does not disqualify anyone else from being used the same way. You have to come to the text with that prejudice to "see" it there.

 

[Amy.G]

Yes. They are not needed as much in today's work, but I believe God still uses them from time to time for His sovereign purposes.

My question is why do you believe the sign gifts are still in operation?
What scriptures do you use to support your belief? Do you have personal experience with sign gifts?

Paul did not heal Timothy of his stomach ailment. He did not heal Epaphroditus, and he was not able to rid himself of the thorn in his side. Why not?

 

[Baptist Believer]

My question is why do you believe the sign gifts are still in operation?

Let's define some terms:

When I am referring to sign gifts, I am primarily referring to the list of gifts in 1 Corinthians 12:8-11, which consists of word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, healing, effecting of miracles (some include exorcism as a miracle, but I don't think it necessarily applies), prophecy, distinguishing of spirits, kinds of tongues, and interpretation of tongues.

I believe the gifts are still available and in operation (according to the will of God, not to will of the person wanting to exercise the gift) is that there is no scripture teaching that the gifts have ended. Furthermore, there is evidence in the lives of believes that at least some of the gifts are still in operation. Please note that there is no scriptural requirement for ALL of the gifts to be operation in ALL cultures and ages.

What scriptures do you use to support your belief?

1 Corinthians 12-14 gives extensive teaching on the proper use of the gifts. I have found no compelling scriptural argument that teaches that 1 Corinthians 12-14 is out-of-date. And believe me, I've looked for 25 years.

Do you have personal experience with sign gifts?

Yes, with some of the gifts.

word of wisdom - Infrequent personal experience
word of knowledge - Knowingly exercised several times a year, sometimes more often if I'm ministering to numerous people in crisis.
faith - I don't know what this would look like, so I can't say either way.
healing - Personally involved in one healing at a hospital in Torrington, Wyoming in March 1987.
effecting of miracles - No, unless you count exorcism. The last time I needed to exercise authority over the demonic was Spring 1991.
prophecy - I'm not sure if this differs from speaking "truth to power" or involves supernatural insight. There's a pretty good chance this has been exercised through me, but I can't tell you for sure.
distinguishing of spirits - Frequently manifested in my life.
kinds of tongues - Never personally manifested in my life. I have only seen one instance I thought was legitimate (July 4, 1987 at Stewart Beach in Galveston, Texas).
interpretation of tongues - Never personally manifested in my life. I have only seen one instance I thought was legitimate (July 4, 1987 at Stewart Beach in Galveston, Texas).

For the record, I wouldn't characterized many (if any) of these experiences as being "emotional" or "feeling-oriented" like so many detractors assume. I cannot specifically think of any particular incident described above as being emotional except for potentially some of the incidents involving commanding demonic spirits. On several of those occasions, I was rather irritated because I was getting tired of the constant harassment.

Paul did not heal Timothy of his stomach ailment. He did not heal Epaphroditus, and he was not able to rid himself of the thorn in his side. Why not?

God's grace was sufficient for His power is perfected in weakness (see 2 Corinthians 12:9). There are purposes for sickness and infirmities, even though it interferes with the American concept of "the pursuit of happiness". As I have stated many times in this forum, the sign gifts are not empowered by human abilities and they are only empowered by the will of God through the Holy Spirit. Since the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all Persons who have intelligence, will, plans, intentions, wisdom, etc. (they are not an impersonal Force like in Star Wars), one must not expect that they can simply decide they are going to heal people without specific guidance from God.

Even Jesus did not heal everyone. If you notice in John 5, Jesus picked only one person by the Pool of Siloam to heal.

So real question should be "Why does God sometimes heal people?"

The answer is that God sometimes heals people to bring Himself glory, as an act of mercy, and to further His purposes. Those who allow themselves to be used to express the sign gifts usually understand this.

 

[DHK]

Legitimate sign gifts are used as signs for believers and unbelievers to authenticate the message of the speaker as a representative of God.

They were used to authenticate the messenger of the message in the NT age only, and then primarily that only of an apostle or his associate. Few outside of that circle had those gifts. The Corinthian group abused the gifts. We are told specifically that the gifts would cease. The context tells us that they did--near the end of the first century when the Bible was completed.
That they did--when the Apostles all died off near the end of the first century, for they were signs to verify an apostle--"signs of an apostle."
That they did--for history itself verifies this: not much about speaking in tongues is recorded after the first century except by cults and paganism.

For instance, the most common sign gift manifested through me is the word of knowledge, where the Holy Spirit speaks to someone directly through me about something of which I would have no way of knowing. From what people tell me, it often involves some very specific thing they were praying about that they’ve never told anyone or something that has occurred in their private life that few, if anyone else, knows about.

Why do you think that is a gift of the Spirit as defined by the Bible?
Why do you think that falls under "word of knowledge"?
That is not word of knowledge IMO, and according to my study. Word of knowledge has nothing to do with the affairs of others. It had directly to do with revelatory knowledge--knowledge that now is in the Bible, but was not in the Bible previously. When these gifts were operational the Bible was not yet complete. When the Bible was completed (perfected), then that which was in part (tongues, prophecy, knowledge (revelatory) ), these all passed away, ended. They had no more purpose.
The Holy Spirit guides today. If your walk is close with God, God can reveal at times things to you. If you are not walking close with God, even Christians can get caught up in the paranormal, which is what you also have described. I am not saying it is. I trust your walk is close with God.

If confirms to them objectively that (1) God is aware of their situation and their prayers have been heard, and (2) that what I am saying to them (in addition to the word of knowledge) is specifically for them to hear and understand.

That is not an objective confirmation. The objective confirmation is the actual answer to prayer. The objective answer that God hears our prayer is our faith in the Word of God and our walk with God. The objective answer to others is that our life is different than others if though we may not realize that it is different. Many times I have been asked, "why is your life different than the others I meet here"? It gives me the opportunity to witness for Christ. The rest of the world lives ungodly lives.

What you say goes against Scripture:
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
--The Scripture tells that in OT times God spoke through the prophets at various times in different ways--visions, dreams, audibly, through miracles at times, etc.
But now he speaks to us through His Son. His Son is revealed to us through the completed Word of God, not through miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit. They are not needed. Everything that we need is in the Scriptures.

On my side of it, most of the time I know when I am speaking a “word of knowledge” because it is like power moving through my body to someone else’s through words (I can’t adequately describe it often than perhaps “fire in my bones” – Jeremiah 20:9). By the time I know I am speaking a word of knowledge, it is already happening – there is not really any planning or thought process involved – and it doesn’t necessarily make much sense to me because I often have very little context for what is being said to the other person. Yet I can tell from the other person’s reaction that something very important and meaningful has happened. At the same time, I often don’t have a clear memory of what was said during those moments, I suspect, because the message was never intended for me and it’s not really my business. Better yet, God is glorified, not the person whom God uses to perform the sign.

Experience does not validate the Word of God. It is the other way around. You are using your experience as your authority. That is the Charismatic MO. Their foundation is experience. From there they build. It becomes doctrinal chaos.
You did not describe "word of knowledge" as it is known in the Bible. You described: zeal, an ability to speak well, being led by the Holy Spirit, and hopefully being filled with the Holy Spirit. There was no "word of knowledge" there. That gift has ceased, and had to directly with the giving of NT revelatory knowledge. It ended by the first century when the revelation of God's Word was complete. It is strange to me that you have no remembrance of what is said. That would lead me to believe you were in a trance like condition, and your experience is more related to the paranormal than to Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit leads into truth and is not forgetful.

When I used to preach on a regular basis, I would find myself occasionally making side comments (which were not planned and not part of the sermon I had prepared) which people told me later that the Spirit had used in their lives as a direct word from God. Talking to other pastors and preachers, I have verified this phenomenon of the Spirit as surprisingly common.

True, that is common. It is not a gift of the Spirit. It is being led of the Spirit in one's preaching.

In the same way I believe that the other sign gifts, when/if the Spirit empowers them in the life of believers, accomplishes similar effect.

Like what other sign gifts?
Have you ever seen anyone with the gift of healing walk through all the hospitals of any given city and heal everyone that is there--especially those that are in the ER?
It doesn't happen. The gift has ceased.

Why aren't missionaries given the gift of tongues (languages)?
Why do they have to learn the language before they go over to a foreign field? Why isn't that gift legitimately in use today?

The reason is because they have ceased.

 

[DaChaser1]

Let's define some terms:

When I am referring to sign gifts, I am primarily referring to the list of gifts in 1 Corinthians 12:8-11, which consists of word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, healing, effecting of miracles (some include exorcism as a miracle, but I don't think it necessarily applies), prophecy, distinguishing of spirits, kinds of tongues, and interpretation of tongues.

baptists traditional use 'sign gifts" to refer to those that were used by the HS to give revelation unto early church, to cofirm jesus by healings, tongues, prophesies, etc

We tend to see that God ceased to do those type of things after Apsotolic Age, as no longer needed!

I tend to see this similiar to you based upon THIS posting, but would still see the sign gifts as not functioning today, as those were given to grant revelation knowledge from god towards us, that is no longer needed, as we now have the bible, andno longer have either office of Apostle/prophet still open in church!

I believe the gifts are still available and in operation (according to the will of God, not to will of the person wanting to exercise the gift) is that there is no scripture teaching that the gifts have ended. Furthermore, there is evidence in the lives of believes that at least some of the gifts are still in operation. Please note that there is no scriptural requirement for ALL of the gifts to be operation in ALL cultures and ages.

OP refers to JST sign gifts that were revelatory in nature, those no longer needed!
Agree with you that some of the Gifts still operational, such as those listed as Administration, teaching,etc...

1 Corinthians 12-14 gives extensive teaching on the proper use of the gifts. I have found no compelling scriptural argument that teaches that 1 Corinthians 12-14 is out-of-date. And believe me, I've looked for 25 years.

NOT all of those listed gifts need to be operational, ones that still function are indeed given guidelines in the Bible for their operation!

Yes, with some of the gifts.

word of wisdom - Infrequent personal experience
word of knowledge - Knowingly exercised several times a year, sometimes more often if I'm ministering to numerous people in crisis.
faith - I don't know what this would look like, so I can't say either way.
healing - Personally involved in one healing at a hospital in Torrington, Wyoming in March 1987.
effecting of miracles - No, unless you count exorcism. The last time I needed to exercise authority over the demonic was Spring 1991.
prophecy - I'm not sure if this differs from speaking "truth to power" or involves supernatural insight. There's a pretty good chance this has been exercised through me, but I can't tell you for sure.
distinguishing of spirits - Frequently manifested in my life.
kinds of tongues - Never personally manifested in my life. I have only seen one instance I thought was legitimate (July 4, 1987 at Stewart Beach in Galveston, Texas).
interpretation of tongues - Never personally manifested in my life. I have only seen one instance I thought was legitimate (July 4, 1987 at Stewart Beach in Galveston, Texas).

Think some of those 'gifts" today would be seen as urgings/promptings/direction understanding etc at times the HS gives to us, but ALWAYS in agreement witht the bible!

For the record, I wouldn't characterized many (if any) of these experiences as being "emotional" or "feeling-oriented" like so many detractors assume. I cannot specifically think of any particular incident described above as being emotional except for potentially some of the incidents involving commanding demonic spirits. On several of those occasions, I was rather irritated because I was getting tired of the constant harassment.


God's grace was sufficient for His power is perfected in weakness (see 2 Corinthians 12:9). There are purposes for sickness and infirmities, even though it interferes with the American concept of "the pursuit of happiness". As I have stated many times in this forum, the sign gifts are not empowered by human abilities and they are only empowered by the will of God through the Holy Spirit. Since the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all Persons who have intelligence, will, plans, intentions, wisdom, etc. (they are not an impersonal Force like in Star Wars), one must not expect that they can simply decide they are going to heal people without specific guidance from God.

Even Jesus did not heal everyone. If you notice in John 5, Jesus picked only one person by the Pool of Siloam to heal.

So real question should be "Why does God sometimes heal people?"

The answer is that God sometimes heals people to bring Himself glory, as an act of mercy, and to further His purposes. Those who allow themselves to be used to express the sign gifts usually understand this.

I do tend to see this as similiar to yourself, at least as explained in THIS post, but still still signs gifts that functioned as revelation from god prior to canon completed as NOT for today, as we have the Bible now, and God closed off the offices of Apostle/prophet in NT after the Apsotolic Age!

Important to have all of us here on the BB be meaning the same way regarding this terms being used here, as at times what those holding to the HS still operating in some fashion along with the Bible!

Whenever one mentions "outside the Bible", many here assume meaning extra biblical revelation etc, but that is NOT what I would mean by that term!

 

[Iconoclast]

I have only one question to ask you: ARE YOU SO FULL OF YOURSELF THAT YOU ARE WILLING TO SAY THAT because of thing I've shared that I'm not going to heaven?

Because if that is not what you are insinuating, then why the hard push to get me to believe as you? It sure seems that you have set yourself up as judge and jury when it comes to what I believe and how I interpret Scripture, and that is not up to you do. Never once did I try to convince you that my way was the only, or right way. However, that is what this whole thing has come down to. It's your way or the highway when it comes to those of us on this board that may be a little to the left or right of what you call main line Baptist theology. If you can live with yourself, fine with me. You don't bother me, but I am concerned as to your underlying pining that if I believe the way, I do; I may not get eternal life!

As I said in another post to you: I am perfectly happy with MY LIFE IN JESUS CHRIST!

Well ,
Thank you for your response here Dude:thumbs::wavey: This was the question i wanted you to respond to. We both got a little heated perhaps.
This is a much better interaction here.

have only one question to ask you: ARE YOU SO FULL OF YOURSELF THAT YOU ARE WILLING TO SAY THAT because of thing I've shared that I'm not going to heaven?

Dude...lets clear the air here.

ARE YOU SO FULL OF YOURSELF

Let me say this dude. You can express this opinion of me if that makes you happy. I am just a sinner saved by grace. You do not know me,you have no idea what I do...so be careful not to slander me, or go about as a talebearer.

THAT YOU ARE WILLING TO SAY THAT because of thing I've shared that I'm not going to heaven?[/

It is not my place to say that to any person.That Judgement belongs to God alone who sees the heart. You can be wrong on many doctrines and still go to heaven if you are the object of God's saving grace.
I will never say you are going to heaven , or hell....that is between you and God. Sometimes i see warning signs in someones posts...
for example QF....likes to branch out and consider some of the NPP. and open theism teaching and teachers.....I voiced a concern to him. He is a big boy...he told me he is fine...thats all i can do.
I will read the posts in here and comment on what i see as good edifying posts....and others the contain partial truth partial error. I will comment on posts that are wrong. I try to help those who want help...there are some..
you, winman, benjamin, have let me know you are not looking for help...that is fine with me.
I look to offer good links to those who are teachable.
I will answer sincere objections to the grace of God---calvinism....as best as I can, with scripture, links, sermons,etc. I do not despise godly teachers that God has given as gifts to His church.

Dude.....if you come at me with an agenda to attack....I will respond and you might not like the response you get...but it will come.
if someone is sincere..i respond that way....if someone pokes a stick in my eye...i will stop them however that takes place...
if someone is trying to harm me.... i will deal with it as i need to.

4Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

5Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit

In this thread i saw you as being in verse 5....i tried vs 4 for awhile ..but when you pushed it...I went to verse 5:thumbs:

Because if that is not what you are insinuating, then why the hard push to get me to believe as you?

I do not need you to believe as i do....I offer scripture, or the confessions of faith of godly brethren...who also prayed, studied, looked to the Spirit for wisdom.
I have seen you many times try to help people in here...that is a good thing.
i might have given you a thumbs up, or two....
However...this area of an open canon, false gifts, new revelation....is a direct attack on the FAITH...once delievered to the saints JUDE 3
once for all time delievered.... It is dangerous and rampant in our day...

If you look back ...when you first reacted to my posts...I used the expression WOF...Light......in other words....you distance your self from the WOF heretics, which is good....but what I see is you opening the door to it,like JF and several others in here. If it makes you feel any better...I am openly critical of John Piper, and wayne grudem...as they do the same.
they help many people in many areas....I am not saying they personally are ungodly....In this area..they do the church no favor and in fact do damage.

It sure seems that you have set yourself up as judge and jury when it comes to what I believe and how I interpret Scripture, and that is not up to you do.

In this area of teaching, I will be critical yes... I see it as harmful,and not in accordance with the historic faith...1689, 1644 etc.

Never once did I try to convince you that my way was the only, or right way.

if you think i have error , you should offer scriptures to correct the error.
Once you offer scripture...the blood is of your head...ezk33 has this principle that the apostles used;

7So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.

8When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

9Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

4And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

5And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.

6And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean; from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

However, that is what this whole thing has come down to. It's your way or the highway when it comes to those of us on this board that may be a little to the left or right of what you call main line Baptist theology.

If you oppose the God I worship, or that form of doctrine that has been given...I will try and offer correction, or answer the objections..
with a new believer be more patient and plant seeds of truth..with those hardened against truth, who mock and ridicule...i will try to offer correction..but then fully expose the error....Let the reader decide:thumbsup:

If you can live with yourself, fine with me

I can live with myself just fine as i know that each one of us has to give account of himself to God.

You don't bother me, but I am concerned as to your underlying pining that if I believe the way, I do; I may not get eternal life!

The ability or lack of ability to perceive Divine truth is God given. I am to be faithful to what I have been given by God through many different ways, persons, messages, books, meditation. I recommend that everyone do the same.