If you receive the mark of the beast, you will lose eternal life

[saturneptune]

The "number of his name" is said to be 666 in Rev 13. It is an identifier for the beast. A way to identify the beast.

The word "OR" signifies that these are not the same thing -

So the mark, the number and the name of the beast are 3 different things but they all apply to the beast.

The name and number of his name - are both referring to the name of the beast. John is living at the time of the Roman Empire - the official language of the Roman empire is Latin even though John is writing in the common language legacy left from the previous Empire - Greek.

So John is saying that the name of the beast will include Latin letters -- some of which also have numeric values such as "V"(5) and "X"(10) and "C"(100) etc.

So for example
LXIII = 63.
XCIV = 94.

I believe it is correct to say that Rev 12 deals with the coming of Christ (as Messiah) and then what followed it - 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the saints by a certain Holy Roman Empire. (Takes you to 1700's) at the end of Rev 12 and Rev 13 recaps that 1260 year period and then takes us to the next phase.

As for the "Mark" or sign of the beast. It is also mentioned in Rev 14:8-12.

The saints worship the true God - who "made the heavens and the earth and the seas and the springs of waters" Rev 14:7 and the lost will take the mark of the beast and worship him instead according to Rev 14:8-11.

There will also be an "hour of his judgement has come" message according to Rev 14:7 as part of this final warning. We know it is the final message to earth because Rev 14 ends with a description of the 2nd coming.

The saints are said to be those who 'KEEP the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" in Rev 14:12. So that sort of gets us back to the idea of obedience vs rebellion against God.

in Christ,

Bob

The reference of 1260 is usually associated with one of the three and a half years of Tribulation or Great Tribulation. Where are you coming up with the 1260 days to years? Also, how do you get 1260 years ending up in the 1700s? What event around 500 AD started that counting of time, and what event ended the middle age persecution of the saints? Are you talking about the Reformation, which is 200 years earlier. Some of Revelation 12 parallels Joseph and his brothers, and the birth of Christ, but would appreciate it if you would expand on those figures.

 

[evangelist-7]

I am interested.

But, too bad everyone else is interested only in false doctrines from hundreds of years ago
... initiated by Satan itself (I still have problems referring to sexless spirit beings as persons!)

http://www.raidersnewsupdate.com/

One page down on the left is all the reading one's little heart could desire
about what we're in for quite soon ... a 10-part series (so far).

Been lots of talk for a year or so about the deadly persecution of Christians really escalating ...
well, the mark of the beast should polish us off quite nicely, thank you very much!

Did da red get anyone's attention? ...
Nah, we're good ... We gots da OSAS goin' for us ... Kill us, or no, we'ze a-goin' to heaven!
.

 

[evangelist-7]

The saints are said to be those who 'KEEP the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" in Rev 14:12.
So that sort of gets us back to the idea of obedience vs rebellion against God.

Thanks, Roberto, for the info ...

I purposely avoided pointing to the blue (which is in the OP).
Once a year, I like to have mercy on the OSASers!
.

 

[webdog]

Thanks, Roberto, for the info ...

I purposely avoided pointing to the blue (which is in the OP).
Once a year, I like to have mercy on the OSASers!
.

When you are faithless, I remain faithful - God

 

[evangelist-7]

When you are faithless, I remain faithful - God

Yes, faithful to try His best to bring you back ... chastising you is one of His ways.

But, alas, your free-will reigns supreme ... He will not overrule your choices.
.

 

[annsni]

Yes, faithful to try His best to bring you back ... chastising you is one of His ways.

But, alas, your free-will reigns supreme ... He will not overrule your choices.
.

What a weak god.

 

[steaver]

Yes, faithful to try His best to bring you back ... chastising you is one of His ways.

But, alas, your free-will reigns supreme ... He will not overrule your choices.
.

Or, we can freely choose to believe the words of God.....

1Th5:23-24 - "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it."

Sorry, looks like "try His best" isn't found in the scriptures.

So if we have the words "try His best" pitted against the words "will do it", and only one set is found in the Holy Scriptures, then which set of words would be exposed as antichrist doctrine? I mean think about this, we have God saying He will do it, and we have another voice saying "no, He will try His best", it sounds very familiar, like in the garden - "Did God really say?"

Hbr12:2 - "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."

 

[evangelist-7]

What a weak god.

I say we're supposed to be intelligent enough to understand that ...
God will NOT force us to NOT do what we ultimately freely choose to do!
If you're awake AND catch my drift. But, no, you're :sleeping_2:

For those who choose to co-operate with the Holy Spirit, it's not a problem.

For those who choose NOT to take the mark of the beast, it's not a problem.

Count the years: 1, 2, 3, maybe 4.

Shakespeare never did get it quite right ... he really meant to write:
"To be takin' da mark, or not to be takin' da mark, that is the question ..."
.

 

[webdog]

I say we're supposed to be intelligent enough to understand that ...
God will NOT force us to NOT do what we ultimately freely choose to do!
If you're awake AND catch my drift. But, no, you're :sleeping_2:

For those who choose to co-operate with the Holy Spirit, it's not a problem.

For those who choose NOT to take the mark of the beast, it's not a problem.

Count the years: 1, 2, 3, maybe 4.

Shakespeare never did get it quite right ... he really meant to write:
"To be takin' da mark, or not to be takin' da mark, that is the question ..."
.

The thing you are getting hung up on is the freedom. Just because you are free to do something doesn't men you are eqully free to undo the same thing. You are free to burn down a house, but not free to undo the action. You are free to murder someone, but not free to undo the murder. You are free to get circumcised, not free to undo it...and ironically salvation is called a circumcision of the heart. You are free to accept the offer of eternal life, and reject it, but not free to undo the consequences for both. Eternal is never eternal if it can be temporal at some point.

 

[steaver]

The thing you are getting hung up on is the freedom. Just because you are free to do something doesn't men you are eqully free to undo the same thing. You are free to burn down a house, but not free to undo the action. You are free to murder someone, but not free to undo the murder. You are free to get circumcised, not free to undo it...and ironically salvation is called a circumcision of the heart. You are free to accept the offer of eternal life, and reject it, but not free to undo the consequences for both. Eternal is never eternal if it can be temporal at some point.

Spot on! But I doubt he will understand God given logic.

 

[BobRyan]

You are free to accept the offer of eternal life, and reject it, but not free to undo the consequences for both. Eternal is never eternal if it can be temporal at some point.

Obviously it is "lost" when it is ... err... umm... "lost". Kinda the definition of losing salvation as we probably would all agree.

You "quote you" rather well in making your case for your doctrine, because "in you" you have abundant quotes for the much needed statements essential to your tradition.

But the Bible says Jesus Himself taught "forgiveness revoked" Matt 18.

The Bible says that the saved are subject to "fallen from Grace" and "Severed From Christ" Gal 5:4 - the "lost state".

The Bible says that the saved are "to FEAR ...for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you... but He is able to graft them in again IF they do not continue in unbelief" Romans 11.

The Bible says "I do all things for the sake of the Gospel that I may be a fellow PARTAKER of IT...I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified" 1Cor 11.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[saturneptune]

Bob
Would you please answer post 21. It is not a debate question, I am just trying to understand your time line. I have no settled position on end time events yet.

 

[DHK]

The title of the thread:

If you receive the mark of the beast, you will lose eternal life

First, I will not be here to receive the mark of the beast. I already am assured of that. God has not appointed his children to wrath, and I am one of His. His Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am His child.

I am thankful that my salvation is eternally secure in the hand of Christ.
He doesn't lie. He gave me eternal life, a life which cannot become temporary. He said I will never perish. He won't lie. I trust in his promises, not the deceivers of this world.
He said: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus." What a wonderful promise.
Throughout the Bible promise after promise is given both by Christ and the other writers of Scripture that one can never lose their salvation (providing they actually trusted him in the first place). If you question whether you are saved, then perhaps you are not saved.

Jesus is coming again for all those that are redeemed.
The Tribulation will begin after that. I don't intend to be here; in fact I know I won't be. Taking the mark of the beast is not an issue for the believer. I can't take it if I don't have the chance, can I?

 

[steaver]

The title of the thread:

First, I will not be here to receive the mark of the beast. I already am assured of that. God has not appointed his children to wrath, and I am one of His. His Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am His child.

I am thankful that my salvation is eternally secure in the hand of Christ.
He doesn't lie. He gave me eternal life, a life which cannot become temporary. He said I will never perish. He won't lie. I trust in his promises, not the deceivers of this world.
He said: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus." What a wonderful promise.
Throughout the Bible promise after promise is given both by Christ and the other writers of Scripture that one can never lose their salvation (providing they actually trusted him in the first place). If you question whether you are saved, then perhaps you are not saved.

Jesus is coming again for all those that are redeemed.
The Tribulation will begin after that. I don't intend to be here; in fact I know I won't be. Taking the mark of the beast is not an issue for the believer. I can't take it if I don't have the chance, can I?

Amen! :thumbsup:

I'm outa here with ya! :tongue3:

Makes you wonder, why doesn't everyone have this peace in Christ that you and I and millions of others enjoy??

 

[evangelist-7]

Obviously it is "lost" when it is ... err... umm... "lost".
Kinda the definition of losing salvation as we probably would all agree.

God had His reasons for NOT yelling and screaming, "You can lose your salvation!"
I understand some (all?) of His reasons.

Instead, He put in Scripture multitudes of "somewhat hidden" warnings about losing salvation.

Kinda reminds me of His "still small voice" (which many "Christians" insist is nonsense!).

Jesus said: If you don't forgive everyone, the father won't forgive you!

Jesus said: If you commit any of these sins (long list), you will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Jesus said: If you take the mark of the beast, you will spend eternity in hell.

Such Scriptures refer to (and apply to) everyone on the face of the earth!

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

Some in the churches have an ear, but not very many!
.

 

[webdog]

Obviously it is "lost" when it is ... err... umm... "lost". Kinda the definition of losing salvation as we probably would all agree.

You "quote you" rather well in making your case for your doctrine, because "in you" you have abundant quotes for the much needed statements essential to your tradition.

But the Bible says Jesus Himself taught "forgiveness revoked" Matt 18.

The Bible says that the saved are subject to "fallen from Grace" and "Severed From Christ" Gal 5:4 - the "lost state".

The Bible says that the saved are "to FEAR ...for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you... but He is able to graft them in again IF they do not continue in unbelief" Romans 11.

The Bible says "I do all things for the sake of the Gospel that I may be a fellow PARTAKER of IT...I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified" 1Cor 11.

in Christ,

Bob

I'm not quoting me Bob, the Bible calls it everlasting life. Bob says it can be lost. By definition it was never eternal life. Simple logic. You continue to confuse sanctification and justification.

 

[evangelist-7]

I'm not quoting me Bob, the Bible calls it everlasting life. Bob says it can be lost.
By definition it was never eternal life. Simple logic. You continue to confuse sanctification and justification.

There are warning verses that actually use the words "eternal life".

One cannot lose what one does not have.

Then there's the current warning passage.

But, OSASers think they have to say, "NO BACs will be anywhere around."
.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm not quoting me Bob, the Bible calls it everlasting life. Bob says it can be lost. By definition it was never eternal life.

It is a "made up definition" that says that once eternal life is lost - then before it was lost - it was not eternal life. It is a self-conflicted definition.

Eternal life is by definition eternal but it is not defined as "you cannot forfeit it" -- all the "you cannot choose" arguments are a form of Calvinism.

Even Calvinists admit that in heaven both Calvinists and Arminians will be affirming the point that some people are in heaven, and have eternal life while others are lost.

Both groups believe this.

But in the Bible we have the warnings about
1. Forgiveness revoked - Matt 18
2. Those "IN ME" that are removed/cut off - dried up cast in fire John 15.
3. Those under grace, and joined to Christ that are later "Severed FROM Christ" and "Fallen FROM grace" Gal 5:4.

But the good news according to the actual Bible is "He is able to restore them AGAIN if they do not continue in unbelief" Romans 11.

1 Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it. ... I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.


1 Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it. 24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.




in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob
Would you please answer post 21. It is not a debate question, I am just trying to understand your time line. I have no settled position on end time events yet.

That is a good post. Since this thread is devoted to OSAS vs not - I am going to start a new thread on the 1260 days, 42 months, 3.5 years.

with your post in it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[webdog]

It is a "made up definition" that says that once eternal life is lost - then before it was lost - it was not eternal life. It is a self-conflicted definition.

No, it is keeping true to the very definition of eternal.

Eternal life is by definition eternal but it is not defined as "you cannot forfeit it" -- all the "you cannot choose" arguments are a form of Calvinism

.How do you not see the inconsistency here? If you can forfeit something eternal, it is not eternal by the very definition of the word.

Even Calvinists admit that in heaven both Calvinists and Arminians will be affirming the point that some people are in heaven, and have eternal life while others are lost.

Both groups believe this.

But in the Bible we have the warnings about
1. Forgiveness revoked - Matt 18
2. Those "IN ME" that are removed/cut off - dried up cast in fire John 15.
3. Those under grace, and joined to Christ that are later "Severed FROM Christ" and "Fallen FROM grace" Gal 5:4.

But the good news according to the actual Bible is "He is able to restore them AGAIN if they do not continue in unbelief" Romans 11.

1 Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it. ... I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.


1 Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it. 24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.




in Christ,

Bob

Like I said earlier, you are confusing sanctification with justification. When we are justified, we are sealed by Him...not us.

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Its quite clear, He holds the "deed", not us. He calls it eternal, not us.