If you say you are non-denominational - are you really?

[Salty]

Exactly what does Non-denominational really mean?

From another thread: (Post # 45 )
"Churches and denominations. The majority of your seeker friendly churches don't necessarily belong to a denomination. They consider themselves non-denominational churches that mainly concentrate on church growth, that equals more money. An example is Andy Stanley's North Point Community Church. He has 50,000 regular attenders throughout his 8 campuses in the Atlanta area that he live streams to. In addition to these core locations, the organization maintains a global network of over 150 strategic partner churches that model their ministry after the North Point strategy."

IMHO - than North Point IS a denomination!

Often a church that calls itself "non-denominational" is actually part of a denomination!

Again IMHO - "non-denominational" means nothing to me!

 

[Foxmeister]

North Point operates autonomously. They are not restricted to, affiliated with, or controlled by any specific religious denomination or formal branch of a faith. Perhaps you mean Stanley has started his own denomination.

 

[Salty]

The post I quoted stated there are 8 campuses Those 8 ARE not autonomous! Thus I consider them part of the North Pointe denomination!
Now, on point # 2, Stanley may not be part another denomination or movement - BUT by calling them selves "non-denomination" says absolutely nothing about their beliefs.

 

[Foxmeister]

The post I quoted stated there are 8 campuses Those 8 ARE not autonomous! Thus I consider them part of the North Pointe denomination!
Now, on point # 2, Stanley may not be part another denomination or movement - BUT by calling them selves "non-denomination" says absolutely nothing about their beliefs.

People at those campuses sit in their auditoriums and watch the sermon as it's streamed live on a screen. All the tithing and offerings collected go to Andy Stanley's ministry.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

There is no such a thing as "Non-Denominational" IMO. Every congregation has core beliefs that are distinctly Baptist, Catholic, Wesleyan, Anglican, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, and so forth. A congregation may have a "mash-up" of one or more of these. If they are actually something completely "new" (they are not), they are an abberant cult and this is exactly what the vast majority of the "restorationist" crowd becomes when they abandon all tradition, history, and try to start over from square one.

Baptists often call themselves "non-denominational" because they hold to the "autonomy of the local church" but they would also make the assertion that there things that make a church distinctly "Baptist" and there are historic creeds, confessions, SOFs, etc., whereby it is determined whether one congregation may be in communion with the other.

I would say that the multi-campus "Baptist" churches typically lose what makes them distinctly Baptist for the simple fact that they no longer have a single unified congregation where everyone knows each other and are on a first-name basis with the pastoral leadership. I believe they are already on this "Slippery Slope" when they go to multiple services and especially when you have "Contemporary" and "Traditional" services and so forth. They may call themselves "congregational" but truth be known, a "Personality-led" (often a high-profile, nationally known senior pastor) multi-campus church is becoming "Episcopalean" in their polity with the senior pastor becoming the "Regional Bishop" over all the multiple sites and the "Campus Pastor" becomes the parish priests and so forth. Second Baptist of Houston is seeing the logical end of this in that congregational rule (arguably a core baptist distinctive) is no longer a possibility.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

People at those campuses sit in their auditoriums and watch the sermon as it's streamed live on a screen. All the tithing and offerings collected go to Andy Stanley's ministry.

In the very same fashion as each Roman Catholic Parish ultimately gives its tithes and offerings over to their respective Diocese and it is the Diocese who holds the title to the parish property? Same goes for Methodists and others whereby the denominational entity owns the property, assigns clergy, and so forth.

 

[Mike B]

I've always considered a "non-denominational" church to be a gathering of people who
don't really know what they believe.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

I've always considered a "non-denominational" church to be a gathering of people who
don't really know what they believe.

Sadly, this would be your typical Baptist!

 

[Foxmeister]

Let's look at the definition of denomination. Webster: a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices.

A non-denominational person or organization is one that does not follow (or is not restricted to) any particular or specific religious denomination.

 

[Mike B]

A non-denominational person or organization is one that does not follow (or is not restricted to) any particular or specific religious denomination.

Could that also be considered a compromise church? As in, whatever Biblical doctrine you wish to
believe in is fine with the non-denominational church, so long as it appears Christian?

I have a problem with that. I'd prefer a half-filled church that actually preaches the gospel and teaches
the Bible over one that's stuffed every service and preaches milktoast and money.

 

[Foxmeister]

Could that also be considered a compromise church? As in, whatever Biblical doctrine you wish to
believe in is fine with the non-denominational church, so long as it appears Christian?

I have a problem with that. I'd prefer a half-filled church that actually preaches the gospel and teaches
the Bible over one that's stuffed every service and preaches milktoast and money.

I wouldn't say all non-denominational churches preaches milk toast and honey, but a large number do. Look at Andy Stanley, Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copeland, Oral Roberts, Paula White, Benny Hinn, Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, Paul and Jan Crouch, and others who led independent ministries. True Roberts was first Pentecostal, then an ordained Methodist, but once he was revoked by the Methodist, he was strictly an independent non-denominational ministry all about the money.

 

[Mike B]

I wouldn't say all non-denominational churches preaches milk toast and honey,

I am sure there is truth in that. My comment was actually milktoast and money.

There was a massive church building near where I grew up..they called it the
"Crystal Cathedral"...it was an amazing building. Went to a wedding there right
after they finished it, and Robert Schuller was the pastor who presided over the
wedding. It was long ago, but I'll never forget that he had this permanent fake smile
that looked like a plastic mask painted on his face.

The founding church was $45 million in debt in 2012, so they sold it to the Catholic Church for
some $57 million.

So much money invested in just a property and building....That's just nuts.

 

[Foxmeister]

I am sure there is truth in that. My comment was actually milktoast and money.

There was a massive church building near where I grew up..they called it the
"Crystal Cathedral"...it was an amazing building. Went to a wedding there right
after they finished it, and Robert Schuller was the pastor who presided over the
wedding. It was long ago, but I'll never forget that he had this permanent fake smile
that looked like a plastic mask painted on his face.

The founding church was $45 million in debt in 2012, so they sold it to the Catholic Church for
some $57 million.

So much money invested in just a property and building....That's just nuts.

I meant money.

I remember Robert Schuller's Hour of Power.

 

[Salty]

I would like to add that some non-denominational ARE Bible believing churches - but why would you not want to
convey that in your name?

 

[Mike B]

In my town there is a small, local church that is simply named "Community
Bible Church". Local, fully independent, and no association with any denominational
group. I've never visited there, but their SOF is consistent with most Baptist churches.

 

[kyredneck]

In my town there is a small, local church that is simply named "Community
Bible Church". Local, fully independent, and no association with any denominational
group. I've never visited there, but their SOF is consistent with most Baptist churches.

In my town the wife and I grew in leaps and bounds in Bible knowledge during two years at a ‘Community Bible Church’ headed by a couple of retired missionaries that focused on Bible memorization and ministering to kids from three different housing projects to teach THE BIBLE.

 

[Walter]

I am sure there is truth in that. My comment was actually milktoast and money.

There was a massive church building near where I grew up..they called it the
"Crystal Cathedral"...it was an amazing building. Went to a wedding there right
after they finished it, and Robert Schuller was the pastor who presided over the
wedding. It was long ago, but I'll never forget that he had this permanent fake smile
that looked like a plastic mask painted on his face.

The founding church was $45 million in debt in 2012, so they sold it to the Catholic Church for
some $57 million.

So much money invested in just a property and building....That's just nuts.

The Crystal Cathedral was not nondenominational. It was Reformed Church of America and practiced infant baptism. Robert Schuller always wore a Geneva Gown as did his son after his dad passed and a huge drop in attendance following internal fighting. He then wore a suit and tried to rebrand the church as nondenominational. It didn't work. The church is now packed again by Cat'lics

Crystal Cathedral Attendance Rebounds After Schullers Exit - Charisma Magazine Online

On Sunday, about 1,400 worshippers attended English-language morning services at the cathedral, compared to about 600 when former senior pastor Sheila Schuller Coleman led the services.

mycharisma.com

I should mention after nasty fight within the church, Schuller's daughter attempted to bring the church back as the senior 'pastor'.

 

[Deacon]

A quick search for the definition of denomination:

...a recognized autonomous branch of the Christian Church:
...a religious group that has slightly different beliefs from other groups that share the same religion
...a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices

Of course demonization has a totally different meaning (that nasty spell check)

Rob

 

[Salty]

A quick search for the definition of denomination:

...a recognized autonomous branch of the Christian Church:
...a religious group that has slightly different beliefs from other groups that share the same religion
...a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices

Of course demonization has a totally different meaning (that nasty spell check)

Rob

And of course the other definition is a group with a hierarchy.

 

[Foxmeister]

I would like to add that some non-denominational ARE Bible believing churches - but why would you not want to
convey that in your name?

If you're asking me that question, I never said there weren't.