If you were not Baptist, ...

[1689Dave]

Three Christians agree Ephesians 2:8, ". . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: . . ." to be true, but disagree as to its meanings!
Contexts . . . Epheians 2.1-10 . . . too.

I think the level of experience in Christ determines the interpretation. I see it as pure grace unaided by human endeavors based on my salvation experience. Others lacking this experience will place themselves into the mix thinking they saved themselves according to their legalistic response. And so on.

 

[JonC]

So "you will know the truth" is meaningless according to you?

No. It is meaning full. You will know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

Hod never said He would give you infinite knowledge. Paul says we now see as through a glass. God tells us NOT to lean on our own understanding. We are commanded NOT to divide over these things. We are commanded not to judge other Christians in these things. We are told Christ IS sufficient.

Why do you feel it appropriate to disobey God in those areas of your life?

 

[JonC]

You seem to equate that if anyone disagrees with you views, must be wrong!

And he doesn't even go to church (he is a counsel of1).

 

[AustinC]

I haven't read it. But do you trust him with scripture?

Read it. In the first chapter on Community Bonhoeffer is right on the money and his use of scripture is spot on.

 

[1689Dave]

No. It is meaning full. You will know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

Hod never said He would give you infinite knowledge. Paul says we now see as through a glass. God tells us NOT to lean on our own understanding. We are commanded NOT to divide over these things. We are commanded not to judge other Christians in these things. We are told Christ IS sufficient.

Why do you feel it appropriate to disobey God in those areas of your life?

Glass darkly = OT. Face to face = NT understanding of the OT.

 

[1689Dave]

Read it. In the first chapter on Community Bonhoeffer is right on the money and his use of scripture is spot on.

I'll see if I can find it in my library.

 

[ntchristian]

Once you know the truth, your attitude changes. It is priceless and you won't trade it for anything. Especially fellowship with heretics.

“Buy the truth, and sell it not; Also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.” Proverbs 23:23 (KJV 1900)

Well, let's you and I form our own church, since we are the only ones to know and hold to truth. All we need is two, right? Then we can exclude everyone else because they are heretics.

 

[1689Dave]

Well, let's you and I form our own church, since we are the only ones to know and hold to truth. All we need is two, right? Then we can exclude everyone else because they are heretics.

Your attitude suggests that truth is not all that important to you.

 

[Salty]

Well, let's you and I form our own church, since we are the only ones to know and hold to truth. All we need is two, right? Then we can exclude everyone else because they are heretics.

Seems like someone is judging you

 

[1689Dave]

Seems like someone is judging you

Only judgemental people who sin doing this.

 

[JonC]

Glass darkly = OT. Face to face = NT understanding of the OT.

Except that is not what Paul is writing about. This is one reason why I am saying Christians need to be in a church. You offered an erroneous interpretation of Paul's words but perhaps this was due to an absence of a brother around to correct you (to point you to the context of the passage).

 

[1689Dave]

Except that is not what Paul is writing about. This is one reason why I am saying Christians need to be in a church. You offered an erroneous interpretation of Paul's words but perhaps this was due to an absence of a brother around to correct you (to point you to the context of the passage).

So you think scripture is not perfect? And that it does not thoroughly furnish us where tongues and prophecy gave only partial knowledge?

 

[JonC]

So you think scripture is not perfect? And that it does not thoroughly furnish us where tongues and prophecy gave only partial knowledge?

I do believe Scripture is perfect. And no,, Scripture does not furnish what tongues provided (tongues were a sign to the unbeliever about what was being said. .per the Bible). But that is not the point.

A pen can write perfectly - but it is imperfect when used as a car key.

You seem to suggest that Scripture answers all the questions you have. But Paul leaves a lot to mystery (e.g., how will our new bodies be? Paul says we do not know but we will be like Christ).

And you are adding to the passage referenced (you add that this "perfect" thing is the NT....which by necessity denies the perfection of the OT).

But in the context of the passage Paul is not talking about a "perfect" thing but rather than temporary nature of tongues, healing, preaching, teaching, ect. in comparison to love. Hope ends in fruition.

 

[Yeshua1]

Only judgemental people who sin doing this.

Yet do you not judge those who hold to going to a local church, for holding to Dispy theology, and music styles and how view marriage and divorce?

 

[Yeshua1]

So you think scripture is not perfect? And that it does not thoroughly furnish us where tongues and prophecy gave only partial knowledge?

Scripture commands us to not forsake gathering together with fellow bethren!

 

[Walter]

As for myself, if not Baptist, and considering where I live, I would probably go with an independent Charismatic church, but not one which held to the Prosperity gospel.

Have you considered a 'convergence church'? They embrace the 'three streams of Christianity'. Here is an example:
The Convergence Movement (also known as the Paleo-orthodox Movement or Ancient-Future Faith movement)[1] is a Protestant Christian movement that began during the Fourth Great Awakening (1960–1980) in the United States. It is largely a result of the ecumenical movement.[2] The Convergence Movement developed as a syncretic movement among evangelical and charismatic churches in the United States blending charismatic worship with liturgies from the Book of Common Prayer, and other liturgical sources common to Lutheranism, Anglicanism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Roman Catholicism.[3][4][5] Denominational groups forming the Convergence Movement may self-identify as Convergence, paleo-orthodox, Ancient-Future Faith, or Evangelical Episcopal; Convergence Christian denominations are often identified by the historic sacramental churches (and self-identified Convergence bodies) as some form of broader Anglicanism or Episcopalianism.[6][7][8]

The pioneers of the Convergence Movement were seeking to restore a primitive form of Christianity different from what the Restoration Movement taught.[9] It was inspired by the spiritual pilgrimages of modern Protestant writers like Thomas Howard, Robert E. Webber, Peter E. Gillquist, and ancient Christian writers such as the Church Fathers and their communities. These men, along with theologians, scripture scholars, and pastors in a number of Protestant denominational traditions, were calling Christians back to what they saw as their roots in the early Church prior to the Great Schism and rise of the state church of the Roman Empire.[10][11][12] Since the advent of Convergence Protestantism, numerous denominations and organizations have sought or claimed apostolic succession.

As you see, they do believe their churches need to seek 'apostolic succession' which you now no longer embrace. If it is that much of a sticking point for you, then they are probably not for you. However, they are evangelical and charismatic friendly and reject prosperity gospel doctrines.


Navigating the "Three Streams" | The North American Anglican

 

[Walter]

@Walter ,

What was your answer to the OP - to the hypothetical question - if you were not a Catholic what denomination-faith would you be?

CEEC Province USA – A Province of The Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches

There are no EOC close to me.

 

[ntchristian]

Your attitude suggests that truth is not all that important to you.

If it was not, I would have stayed where I was born -- the EOC.

Look friend, I did not mean to be too harsh with you, but I see in you a tendency which I also discovered in me, and that is to make "truth" so narrow that, in the end and carried to its logical conclusion, you would be able to have Communion with only yourself.

 

[ntchristian]

Have you considered a 'convergence church'? They embrace the 'three streams of Christianity'. Here is an example:
The Convergence Movement (also known as the Paleo-orthodox Movement or Ancient-Future Faith movement)[1] is a Protestant Christian movement that began during the Fourth Great Awakening (1960–1980) in the United States. It is largely a result of the ecumenical movement.[2] The Convergence Movement developed as a syncretic movement among evangelical and charismatic churches in the United States blending charismatic worship with liturgies from the Book of Common Prayer, and other liturgical sources common to Lutheranism, Anglicanism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Roman Catholicism.[3][4][5] Denominational groups forming the Convergence Movement may self-identify as Convergence, paleo-orthodox, Ancient-Future Faith, or Evangelical Episcopal; Convergence Christian denominations are often identified by the historic sacramental churches (and self-identified Convergence bodies) as some form of broader Anglicanism or Episcopalianism.[6][7][8]

The pioneers of the Convergence Movement were seeking to restore a primitive form of Christianity different from what the Restoration Movement taught.[9] It was inspired by the spiritual pilgrimages of modern Protestant writers like Thomas Howard, Robert E. Webber, Peter E. Gillquist, and ancient Christian writers such as the Church Fathers and their communities. These men, along with theologians, scripture scholars, and pastors in a number of Protestant denominational traditions, were calling Christians back to what they saw as their roots in the early Church prior to the Great Schism and rise of the state church of the Roman Empire.[10][11][12] Since the advent of Convergence Protestantism, numerous denominations and organizations have sought or claimed apostolic succession.

As you see, they do believe their churches need to seek 'apostolic succession' which you now no longer embrace. If it is that much of a sticking point for you, then they are probably not for you. However, they are evangelical and charismatic friendly and reject prosperity gospel doctrines.


Navigating the "Three Streams" | The North American Anglican

Walter, thank you for your post. And yes, I did consider the Convergence Movement, although I no longer hold to the necessity of the so-called apostolic succession. This might have been a possibility for me when I still lived in a big city but not now, living in this very rural area. But I always appreciate suggestions and information, and people who care enough to offer this.

 

[Yeshua1]

If it was not, I would have stayed where I was born -- the EOC.

Look friend, I did not mean to be too harsh with you, but I see in you a tendency which I also discovered in me, and that is to make "truth" so narrow that, in the end and carried to its logical conclusion, you would be able to have Communion with only yourself.

The Body of Christ is far more diverse then he seems to want it to be!